Frame of Drone ?

[Margaret Elisabeth]

My hive in which I have not been able to find a queen now has a full frame side of drone. The frame is foundation-less and the bees have drawn large cells both sides only one side has drone.
I know one way of trying to control varroa is to supply large cell foundation in the hope that the bees cooperate and draw large cells that fill with drone, that we then sacrifice.
I have not seen any queen cells in the hive.
There is now regular pattern brood in other frames.
questions: Has anyone seen this in their hives?
Could the empty frame have prompted this phenomenon?
Does this invariably mean I have a badly mated drone laying Queen?

 

[pargyle]

My hive in which I have not been able to find a queen now has a full frame side of drone. The frame is foundation-less and the bees have drawn large cells both sides only one side has drone.
I know one way of trying to control varroa is to supply large cell foundation in the hope that the bees cooperate and draw large cells that fill with drone, that we then sacrifice.
I have not seen any queen cells in the hive.
There is now regular pattern brood in other frames.
questions: Has anyone seen this in their hives?
Could the empty frame have prompted this phenomenon?
Does this invariably mean I have a badly mated drone laying Queen?

Not necessarily ... if you have a regular brood pattern elsewhere with BIAS (and in particular eggs and larvae) then perhaps the bees just want a few more drones - with no foundation they will decide what cell size they want and that will dictate what the queen will lay in it - worker or drone egg. I wouldn't worry too much unless you only have predominantly capped drone cells in the hive in which case you could have DLQ as a result of poor mating and her reaching the end of her laying ability.

 

[Queens59]

Ditto - I have come to realise that bees require far more drone than I would usually allow - but usually for a reason - especially this late in the season...so I would suggest that you let them be, on the grounds that...

a) the bees know what they are doing...

b)at this stage in the season they are not going to be around for too long...

 

[Erichalfbee]

Take it out?
Good way of removing a lot of varroa.

 

[Beauhawk]

Take it out?
Good way of removing a lot of varroa.

I agree with Erica, take it out and lessen the Varroa load - Drones will be kicked out shortly anyway.

 

[Little John]

You mention that the frame is foundationless - are your other frames also foundationless ?

If not, then it's the bees' natural response to having been constrained by worker-sized foundation - they will then build drone comb whenever there's an opportunity to do so.

If the other frames are foundationless, then I haven't a clue - but there might be a reason we humans don't know about - like a last-minute attempt at hedging their bets in case the queen needs to be superceded etc. Personally, I'd be inclined to leave it 'as is'.

LJ

 

[beeno]

Hi Margaret Elisabeth,
Perfectly normal and great for winter stores!

 

[Luminos]

I agree with Erica, take it out and lessen the Varroa load - Drones will be kicked out shortly anyway.

+1

 

[Tom Bick]

Give them a full box of foundationless frames and the bees are happy with anything up to 20% drone comb. So if you give them just one frame it is likely to be drone. Although at this time of year and depending on the position of the frame in the hive it may be worker comb as the drones are now starting to be evicted and the drone comb used for honey storage with only a small amount of drone brood.

 

[pargyle]

Give them a full box of foundationless frames and the bees are happy with anything up to 20% drone comb. So if you give them just one frame it is likely to be drone. Although at this time of year and depending on the position of the frame in the hive it may be worker comb as the drones are now starting to be evicted and the drone comb used for honey storage with only a small amount of drone brood.

Yes, my long hive was started foundationless in early June and the first five or six frames they drew out all had about 20% of Drone cells, all at the bottom of the frames - at the last inspection, last week, there were very few drone cells. Obviously felt they had enough !!

 

[Margaret Elisabeth]

Give them a full box of foundationless frames and the bees are happy with anything up to 20% drone comb. So if you give them just one frame it is likely to be drone. Although at this time of year and depending on the position of the frame in the hive it may be worker comb as the drones are now starting to be evicted and the drone comb used for honey storage with only a small amount of drone brood.

Hi and thank you all for your replies. My initial thought was are they trying to requeen the hive? My next thought was should I cull the frame for varroa control? Then I have seen no evidence at all of Varroa in the hive by disease or by drop.
I have only recently introduced foundationless frames for both broodbox and honey. The Brood tends to be toward the back of the box. My apiary site is exposed and can be rather cold, the warmest spot is at the back of the hive as it gets most sun, and this frame was one of the rearmost. Initially the laying pattern was haphazard but grouped and there was lots of stores in the way of the queen laying. Now the pattern is better. So I suspect that the bees have decided to fulfill the 20 percent drone requirement which is exactly one side of a frame. There is other capped brood in the hive, I will wait and see.

This thread has made me think a little about the clumseyness of the terminology Foundation-less Frames. From now on I will use the term frames sans foundation or sans foundation frames as in typesetting sans seraph.

 

[Tom Bick]

Yes, my long hive was started foundationless in early June and the first five or six frames they drew out all had about 20% of Drone cells, all at the bottom of the frames - at the last inspection, last week, there were very few drone cells. Obviously felt they had enough !!

Yes they often position the drone comb to the outer edges of the comb for good reason in that if they need to cluster to keep the brood warm in a cold spell they will sacrifice the drones. Not all the drone brood is towards the edges as I think the bees are not so stupid to abandon them all. It is also possible that the drone brood can develop in cooler temperatures but that will be a guess.

Things do get a bit confused for my bees as after arranging the brood nest in a single bb and I come along and give them a 2nd bb under the original but they cope as bees do.

 

[Little John]

This thread has made me think a little about the clumseyness of the terminology Foundation-less Frames. From now on I will use the term frames sans foundation or sans foundation frames as in typesetting sans seraph.

You raise a good point - although I think the 'problem' is that assumptions are usually made that frames will contain foundation - assumptions which are becoming increasingly less justified.

Incidently, if you're no longer using foundation, there really isn't any need to retain the bottom bars - although they can still be useful to keep old (nailed) frames 'square'. When making new frames, I've started to use D4-grade glue to join the top bar and sides in lieu of nails - to keep the 'open' frame rigid - works well.

LJ

 

[Margaret Elisabeth]

They seem to fill the front end of the hive with stores of honey and make the usual rainbow of pollen with honey above but I found this frame puzzling as the whole frame is covered with capped drone. Is that your experience too?

 

[Margaret Elisabeth]

I am not sure what D grade glue is but I have wondered about using glue to stablize the bars. I still use the bottom bars at the moment.So that the comb is contained for ease of moving the boxes. I am only five foot one and a half tall and reducing. So I need to think carefully about how high I can lift boxes.

 

[MuswellMetro]

My hive in which I have not been able to find a queen now has a full frame side of drone. The frame is foundation-less and the bees have drawn large cells both sides only one side has drone.
I know one way of trying to control varroa is to supply large cell foundation in the hope that the bees cooperate and draw large cells that fill with drone, that we then sacrifice.
I have not seen any queen cells in the hive.
There is now regular pattern brood in other frames.
questions: Has anyone seen this in their hives?
Could the empty frame have prompted this phenomenon?
Does this invariably mean I have a badly mated drone laying Queen?

As LJ says it is a natural reponse if all the other foundation is worker, the natural nest would have a varring size of cells on each wild comb that reflects the Bees current need, they can also pull down cells and re draw to a different size

i use one worker/drone frames in a brood box,and it is worker foundation at top with a secondary top bar half way down with starter strip...they build foundationless drone comb from this starter 90% of the time, but not always

so it is nothing to do with the queen, she is fine, its the workers who decided the cells they wanted not HM

 

[pargyle]

I am not sure what D grade glue is but I have wondered about using glue to stablize the bars. I still use the bottom bars at the moment.So that the comb is contained for ease of moving the boxes. I am only five foot one and a half tall and reducing. So I need to think carefully about how high I can lift boxes.

I keep the bottom bars in and glue and nail the frames !! I'm a bit kack handed at times and I figured the more rigid the frames were the more chance I had of keeping them up together when I muck about with them.

I needn't have worried as the bees have built some incredibly solid comb, well attached to my triangular timber guide on the top bar and attached all the way down the side bars ... brilliant engineering. I don't think (as a hobby beekeeper) that there is a great deal of need for foundation ... perhaps if I had enough of my own wax to make my own foundation sheets but even then - the bees seem to thrive on making their own so why deprive them of something they would do in the wild.

 

[Little John]

I am not sure what D grade glue is but I have wondered about using glue to stablize the bars. I still use the bottom bars at the moment.So that the comb is contained for ease of moving the boxes. I am only five foot one and a half tall and reducing. So I need to think carefully about how high I can lift boxes.

The 'D' Grade system was new to me too.

D2 is glue suitable for interior use only.

D3 is glue described as 'weatherproof': i.e. for use outdoors but only when covered or painted, or in mildy damp conditions.

D4 is 'waterproof' - suitable for wood which is subject to wet conditions (so the glue holds, but the wood rots. Ha-ha)

I use D4 from Toolstation (recommended) - £5.98 for a litre. Shelf-life of 6 months; must be used at a temperature of 10 deg C plus.

LJ