Foundationless - practical tips for starting

[Stedic]

I like the idea of not using foundation - mostly because I want to keep as many 'foreign' substances out of the hive as possible. I'm sure there is a lot of debate about how much sense it all makes, but I'm going to try it and then make up my mind.

My question is: How do I start moving to it? It will only be season #2 for me, so I have no drawn super frames. I thought it might be best to have the bees draw some frames with foundation first, and then checkerboard/interweave/add in some foundationless frames once they have more of a guide.

I'm also hoping to do the same for the brood box, but here I am also changing from nuc -> full hive. If I give them their 6 foundation frames (drawn) and add foundationless on the outside, with a guide of some kind, will I get brace comb all over the place? Am I better to let them draw a full box on foundation and then gradually replace things throughout the year(s)?

 

[domino]

I use foundationless, be prepared to have a much-reduced honey crop whilst your bees draw out all that wax. I think it is worth it, just because it is fun.

http://theapiarist.org/ has some great blog posts on the subject.

 

[Hivemaker.]

I think it is worth it, just because it is fun.

What do you find about it that is fun?

 

[domino]

What do you find about it that is fun?

I enjoy seeing them draw it out. At first, I thought it would be a pain in the neck with wonky comb, but I've only had two or three rogue frames.

I'm on my third version of the foundationless frame, so tinkering with them is good fun.

 

[Hivemaker.]

I enjoy seeing them draw it out. At first, I thought it would be a pain in the neck with wonky comb, but I've only had two or three rogue frames.

I'm on my third version of the foundationless frame, so tinkering with them is good fun.

Thank you for that, Domino, I like getting an insight to what other beekeepers enjoy and class as fun.

 

[linoleum bonypart]

Bee prepared to see lots more drone cells too
Try bamboo skewers vertically in the frame as a method too

 

[Eyeman]

I'm trying to use foundationless wired frames as much as possible. I wouldn't bother getting them to draw the frames out within the brood box as you'll get an unpredictable amount of drone comb- sometimes complete frames as the one above.
I now use foundationless in all my bait hives, as I rarely get drone cell from swarms. The same works in my mating nucs. These frames can then be used in your main colonies.

 

[Madge]

Bee prepared to see lots more drone cells too
Try bamboo skewers vertically in the frame as a method too

I found fitting horizontal bamboo sticks easier. You just drill a hole in each sidebar and string the bamboo through it. Bamboo skewers aren't long enough, but bamboo plant supports are. They're not as straight as skewers, but they work fine.

 

[fatshark]

The vertical bamboo 'splints' work well once they've completed the frame. Until then, they're a bit precarious, particularly on very hot days. They tend to build three panels sometimes with different comb. On the plus side, you can easily slice out the third that is drone comb to monitor mite levels.

 

[drex]

I am only foundation less in my top bar hives. To ensure I get a decent straight comb drawn I always place the empty bar between two already drawn out straight combs

 

[domino]

The vertical bamboo 'splints' work well once they've completed the frame. Until then, they're a bit precarious, particularly on very hot days. They tend to build three panels sometimes with different comb. On the plus side, you can easily slice out the third that is drone comb to monitor mite levels.

I found the same, you get three panels of comb. I now use horizontal wire with a tongue depressor glued to the top bar that acts as a guide.

They build over the wire with no issues. Cleaning them is a breeze. Pop the frame in the wax extractor, once the wax has melted off I just put them back in the hives.

 

[Eyeman]

I found the same, you get three panels of comb. I now use horizontal wire with a tongue depressor glued to the top bar that acts as a guide.

They build over the wire with no issues. Cleaning them is a breeze. Pop the frame in the wax extractor, once the wax has melted off I just put them back in the hives.

Mine can work with one to three combs on a frame before they join them all together. Smaller colonies such as my mating nucs tend to have 3 combs on the go.

 

[domino]

Mine can work with one to three combs on a frame before they join them all together. Smaller colonies such as my mating nucs tend to have 3 combs on the go.

That's interesting. What I found was with vertical bamboo the bees built along the bamboo and almost built out each panel then eventually joined them together. With horizontal wired frames, this happened a lot less.

I'm regretting not taking a camera to inspections now.

 

[pargyle]

I've always been foundationless. Triangular strips of timber painted with my own beeswax and nailed under the top bar work best for me and they build right across and down in an even fashion. I use normal top bars but run them through the bandsaw to get rid of the strips to hold foundation. Three horizontal wires in 14 x 12 brood frames, no wire or sometimes one in shallows. They build happily around the wires but the cells with wire in them don't get laid up with eggs.

Get some drone brood at the bottom of the frames but I allow them to have what they want so it doesn't bother me.

 

[domino]

Three horizontal wires in 14 x 12 brood frames, no wire or sometimes one in shallows.

How stable is it in 12x14. I use standard frames so I'm curious.

 

[pargyle]

How stable is it in 12x14. I use standard frames so I'm curious.

It's fine - 3 horizontal wires hold it in place -never had a problem. I handle them properly but even ones that are fresh drawn are very stable. They draw the frames out right to the edge most of the time and even when they have been a bit creative they stand up to any cross comb being cut.

I've had the occasional shallow (newly drawn) blow out a bit in the extractor but only those that have not been wired. I've learned to spin each side gently first before turning the speed up and that seems to sort it. Once a frame has had a season in the supers they are fine - no problem.

As I said, I let them do what they want so I sometimes get some interesting looking brood patterns but they seem to adjust the cells to suit what they want ... and I've seen them tear down drone size cells and replace them with worker sized cells and vice versa when it suits them. I'm sure this is what they do in the wild.

 

[Millet]

Thank you for that, Domino, I like getting an insight to what other beekeepers enjoy and class as fun.

When i broke my arm two years ago my Lady friend was helping me regularly in swarm season, she got stung several times while helping me which i thought was fun.. just thought i would share.. it was not fun really.

 

[domino]

It's fine - 3 horizontal wires hold it in place -never had a problem.

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I've had the occasional shallow (newly drawn) blow out a bit in the extractor but only those that have not been wired.

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As I said, I let them do what they want so I sometimes get some interesting looking brood patterns but they seem to adjust the cells to suit what they want ... and I've seen them tear down drone size cells and replace them with worker sized cells and vice versa when it suits them. I'm sure this is what they do in the wild.

I've got some spare 12x14 boxes I'll give this a whirl, not done shallows yet.

I've also noticed that they tear down comb and rebuilt it. When I first started I use to cut out of the drone frames in the spring hoping they'd built more worker cells, but once I noticed them changing the cell sizes I stopped.

 

[Stedic]

Thanks for all the info so far - absolutely what I was after. I plan to use 14x12 so very apt info on that too. At the moment I think I will try my "nice" bees, who are on 14x12 with a couple of foundationless frames to replace the two manky ones they arrived on. I'm sure they'll make drones, but thats fine by me.

I might Bailey change the less friendly ones to get them from national to 14x12s - I have some foundation of the right size and I'd like to keep their drone numbers lower to influence the general stock. The bees are not horrendous but a bit defensive.

With the nuc, would sticking 6 foundationless frames in to their new brood box result in messy comb? Thinking 3 frames either side, with a starter strip of foundation. I don't really want to split their brood nest if I can help it, although if the outer frames are empty I will alternate.

And finally - for the supers am I best alternate undrawn foundation and foundationless to get them started? Or give them a full box of foundation and split this up when I want them drawing the foundationless frames?

 

[bontbee]

To get foundationless frames I use starter strips - just a cm or less. I alternate them with either foundation or comb. Where foundation is used, they draw the strips - and even start to fill them - before they touch the foundation!

I have had no problem handling deep national frames built from strips - and I don't use wires or supports of any kind.

Re. extraction, I use a tangential extractor for unwired deeps, but they are usually only extracted once and then used for broods. Shallows can be extracted quite straightforwardly - in a radial extractor - even when the combs are only "tacked on" to the frame. Just go long and slow when you extract.