foundationless frames

[citrus]

Been reading up about foundationless frames (as part of the bait hives thread)


Normally I would have thought that I'd be better off with a normal brood frame and a 20cm slice of foundation as a starter

But thornes sell these ...

https://www.thorne.co.uk/frames-and-foundations/frames/british-standard-frames?product_id=7338

I dont know why they are more money than normal frames .... am I missing something

 

[Ian123]

There charging more for the silly bit of ply as a starter strip.....just use a normal frame with starter strip of foundation job done

 

[Millet]

Been reading up about foundationless frames (as part of the bait hives thread)


Normally I would have thought that I'd be better off with a normal brood frame and a 20cm slice of foundation as a starter

But thornes sell these ...

https://www.thorne.co.uk/frames-and-foundations/frames/british-standard-frames?product_id=7338

I dont know why they are more money than normal frames .... am I missing something

You are paying more money for the little strips of wood on the underside of the top bar..

 

[citrus]

There charging more for the silly bit of ply as a starter strip.....just use a normal frame with starter strip of foundation job done

Funny they say ... 'due to popular demand'

 

[Ian123]

Think the idea is to paint a little wax onto that silly ply strip that slips into top to give bees the idea and start them off on right track. You will get the same result if not better with an inch strip of foundation

 

[Newbeeneil]

I horizontally wire and fit about an inch of foundation for my frames in the bait hives, a swarm draws it out a treat.
If I put old comb in there with a couple of foundationless combs I always place it at the edge to make sure scouts can calculate the size of the void easier.

 

[Ian123]

Just FYI if you are using a strip then just bed them in with a few drips of wax, just holds them in place

 

[domino]

I've used these ones for ages:

https://www.theapiarist.org/foundationless-frames-update/

They work great, not messing around with starter strips. I can cut out drone comb for varroa control. And when I want to recycle them it is easy to run them through the solar wax extractor then pop them back into the hive.

Work a treat, I don't even wax them anymore.

 

[Ian123]

None are saying you cant use them if you wish but all the points you make above can be covered by frames with starter strips. Am sure i can knock up a frame with strip faster and dont have to pay the extra £7.00 per pack, plus most of us just knocking up a few for bait hives will already have all the bits to hand

 

[pargyle]

We've run the gamut on foundationless beekeeping in the past ...

Best thread on this topic ever ...

https://beekeepingforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=27494

I've been foundationless since the day I started beekeeping - the bees build what they want in the hive with only the wax they generate themselves. There is something wonderful seeing the way they build natural comb and the speed with which they build it.

I use horizontal stainless steel wires in brood frames - they readily build around them and you just get the odd cell where the wire is that the queen doesn't lay in. Supers i have a mixture of some with one horizontal wire and some with no wires ... doesn't seem to make any difference either way.

I cut the strips off the bottom of standard frame top bars and replace them with a triangular strip of timber (point down) coated with a splash of my own beeswax. Works for me.

 

[Millet]

I've used these ones for ages:

https://www.theapiarist.org/foundationless-frames-update/

They work great, not messing around with starter strips. I can cut out drone comb for varroa control. And when I want to recycle them it is easy to run them through the solar wax extractor then pop them back into the hive.

Work a treat, I don't even wax them anymore.

I had one frame that resembled that last year and what a pain in the arse it was trying to find a Drone laying Queen in warm weather.. when i tilted the frame to find her i had to quickly straighten it up as the drawn wax decided to go with gravity..Queen lost..try again on the other side and the same happened again.. hail the lord for wired foundation..i will never go foundation less ever again in a brood box after that scenario..it wasted nearly 2hr's of my life all through no foundation..

 

[fatshark]

Think the idea is to paint a little wax onto that silly ply strip that slips into top to give bees the idea and start them off on right track. You will get the same result if not better with an inch strip of foundation

No you won't ... in a side by side comparison it makes no difference whether it's a foundation strip, waxed wooden tongue depressor/lolly stick or plain wood.

Except the last one is much easier, never falls out, never needs replacing and - as domino says - goes through the wax extractor and can be used again straight away.

 

[taurus]

For what it's worth - I've offered foundationless frames with no starter strip at all and found the bees seem to prefer them. I have noticed that those which I fit with wire sometimes have areas where the queen doesn't lay (ie along the run of the wire) but if I use heavy duty nylon fishing line then she seems to lay more evenly.

 

[domino]

I had one frame that resembled that last year and what a pain in the arse it was trying to find a Drone laying Queen in warm weather.. when i tilted the frame to find her i had to quickly straighten it up as the drawn wax decided to go with gravity..Queen lost..try again on the other side and the same happened again.. hail the lord for wired foundation..i will never go foundation less ever again in a brood box after that scenario..it wasted nearly 2hr's of my life all through no foundation..

Hot days and new comb is a pain in the arse.

I'm trying plastic frames for queen rearing this year.

 

[citrus]

For what it's worth - I've offered foundationless frames with no starter strip at all and found the bees seem to prefer them. I have noticed that those which I fit with wire sometimes have areas where the queen doesn't lay (ie along the run of the wire) but if I use heavy duty nylon fishing line then she seems to lay more evenly.

interesting .. so no starter strip ..

as for fishing line ... do you follow this technique ?

http://apiarynotes.--------.com/2013/06/fishing-line-and-brood-frames.html

also was looking at the other option of bamboo vertical that someone mentioned earlier

https://www.theapiarist.org/foundationless-frames-update/

 

[Swarm]

Tom Bick posted some pics of foundationless comb adopting the bamboo skewer method. He had lots of interesting information about natural comb, such a shame he no longer posts on the forum.

 

[domino]

interesting .. so no starter strip ..

as for fishing line ... do you follow this technique ?

http://apiarynotes.--------.com/2013/06/fishing-line-and-brood-frames.html

also was looking at the other option of bamboo vertical that someone mentioned earlier

https://www.theapiarist.org/foundationless-frames-update/

I've used both.

I prefer the bamboo method for the following reasons:

1. Once I've made them that's it. I don't need to rewire them, add more starter strips etc.

2. The bees build the comb in the three sections and it is very easy to cut out drone or wonky comb without trashing the whole frame.

3. The drawn frames seem more stable (that could just be my bias)

4. The most maintenance I have to do with these frames it run old ones through a solar wax melter and scraps off the crap - then put them back in a hive.

 

[pargyle]

Tom Bick posted some pics of foundationless comb adopting the bamboo skewer method. He had lots of interesting information about natural comb, such a shame he no longer posts on the forum.

He still lurks in the background but I miss his posts ... sad loss - he's one of the thinking beekeepers we've lost over the years.

 

[citrus]

I've used both.

I prefer the bamboo method for the following reasons:

Can you clear up the method for me ... please tell me I just use old chopsticks

 

[citrus]

just following up on this thread

excellent post here on how to do it

using this for the bait hive

https://www.theapiarist.org/foundationless-frames-update/

https://theapiarist.org/bamboo/


"BBQ skewers are available from an eBay in just about any length and amount you could want. One thousand 25cm skewers (the size needed for a standard National brood frame) cost less than a tenner delivered."

and got some lolly stick/coffee stirers from work