foundationless frames

[Millet]

If you are setting your frames up for the bees to manage as they see fit it seems, to me, a bit pointless to interfere. As for culling drones for varroa..... ouch!!!!! There are better ways of dealing with mites. I never kill drones. The bees like them

Prefect answer and i 100% agree..lazy greedy bee keepers will disagree ..

 

[WalnutTreeBees]

I've been foundationless since I started. The bees do produce more drone comb but they generally make it around the frame perimeter and it gets filled with stores once it's no longer needed for drone rearing. They tend to remodel any drone comb not around the edges when they need it for worker brood. Bees like making and rebuilding comb it seems it seems to me and they generally like to have about 20% of drones during the mating season ... my view - if that's what they have done for eons and survived who am I try and make them do something else. I don't use queen excluders but I rarely get brood in the supers and if they do - they clean it out and fill it with honey... this probably makes me a bad beekeeper in the eyes of some on here but I manage my colonies for swarming - I won't tolerate 'hot' colonies and I monitor for diseases (not that I've had any) and the effects of varroa and I feed if necessary ...other than that what the bees do the bees do.

In your experience, is it possible to introduce a full box of foundationless frames in one go? Or will the bees just build comb everywhere? I see that a lot of people recommend alternating one foundationless frame with one of foundation.

 

[Podilia]

I tried foundationless method for two summers. Now I returned to the foundation. In my opinion it's not so important whether foundation is natural or unnatural in a hive. It's more important (for me) that a foundation is clear without parafin and other residues. Therefore I'm going to make my own foundation from my wax.
I think a colony has a life cycle when it is young and then getting older. Using foundation we prolong the period of youth, delay possible swarming. Is it natural or not? For example, in gardening we cut off old branches on a tree so a tree can be more productive for a longer time.
Another example. This summer is really bad for bees bacause of weather. Without foundation my colonies certainly could have built drone cells in spring. Then during hot and dry June they would built nothing and left those drone combs. I did not see that bees could rebuild drone cells. Now my colonies are not perfect but with good frames in the nests they can rear new workers, maintain the population until the good flow begins (I hope). They are still "young" as new swarms. I dont use queen excluders by the way. Is it natural or unnatural?

I see that a lot of people recommend alternating one foundationless frame with one of foundation.

It is possible that bees will build only foundation frames and make the cells longer.

 

[pargyle]

In your experience, is it possible to introduce a full box of foundationless frames in one go? Or will the bees just build comb everywhere? I see that a lot of people recommend alternating one foundationless frame with one of foundation.

They really need a drawn frame to guide them. I've got enough now to intersperse drawn frames with empty ones and they rarely go wrong. But .. I've started them off with just a box of frames with small home made wax starter strips and they have managed to stay straight. I've even had them go off the rails and before they get too far with the comb building (while it is still soft) I've remodelled it into the frames (rubber bands, string etc,) and they get the message. Once they have done one they usually follow suit.

I do find that the ones that manage to keep straight best are those hives where the frames are aligned north/south. Coincidence ? Who knows.

I've also found that triangular starter strips with the point downwards (obviously) painted with beeswax have the best success rate for good straight comb.

Any foundationless hive will need a bit of intervention when they are comb building .. just straighten it up, trim it if it gets a bit wayward and they will sort it out.

 

[BangerterHarp]

also was looking at the other option of bamboo vertical that someone mentioned earlier

https://www.theapiarist.org/foundationless-frames-update/

Thank you Citrus for the link to the article. I am transitioning from Langstroth deep frames to a narrow deep frame and have been foundationless from the start. Lang deeps and mediums seem to hold up well enough without support but I'm still uncertain whether I will us horizontal or vertical comb support in the new frame. Bamboo skewers seem like a good idea regardless.

 

[domino]

In your experience, is it possible to introduce a full box of foundationless frames in one go? Or will the bees just build comb everywhere? I see that a lot of people recommend alternating one foundationless frame with one of foundation.

I found they tend to curve then edges of the first frame if there isn' a guide frame.

 

[mdotb]

I found they tend to curve then edges of the first frame if there isn' a guide frame.

Agreed - if you catch it early enough freshly drawn wax can be straightened out into the frame very easily, but if they get a bit carried away, or you don't notice it during quick checks of the colony, it can get carried away.

However I don't use foundation for the guides. Within the brood box* I tend to put empty foundationless frames between drawn comb and it gets drawn straight, usually directly over the wires etc.

My experience of supers is more mixed, because the bees will continue to deepen uncapped comb, sometimes in preference to drawing a new frame, and you can end up with some interesting shapes that only really fit in one way next to each other, are difficult to move or remove, and as soon as there's nectar in any of the comb, trying to do anything about it in the apiary becomes challenging/messy/ a bad idea. Foundationless in supers seems to work well between frames of capped honey though, and given the experience of dealing with irregularly drawn comb, my suggestion would be to split the "new" frames when adding a full box of foundationless with the capped frames in an existing super already on the hive, giving you two boxes of half-and-half interleaved. Much quicker and easier than sorting out the mess later, if slightly longer than just adding a box once the comb is drawn.

*Brood box - of course this works in a box which the bees are using to raise brood, according to the time of year, configuration of hive, etc. If the bees are storing nectar on a frame or in a box that you want them to raise brood in, all of the cell extension issues for supers are still likely to occur.

My limited experience, but it is of being foundationless (rather than 50% foundation).

 

[Murox]

Thank you Citrus for the link to the article. I am transitioning from Langstroth deep frames to a narrow deep frame and have been foundationless from the start. Lang deeps and mediums seem to hold up well enough without support but I'm still uncertain whether I will us horizontal or vertical comb support in the new frame. Bamboo skewers seem like a good idea regardless.

So out of curiosity - how deep are your frames - 18 inches ??

 

[pargyle]

Agreed - if you catch it early enough freshly drawn wax can be straightened out into the frame very easily, but if they get a bit carried away, or you don't notice it during quick checks of the colony, it can get carried away.

However I don't use foundation for the guides. Within the brood box* I tend to put empty foundationless frames between drawn comb and it gets drawn straight, usually directly over the wires etc.

My experience of supers is more mixed, because the bees will continue to deepen uncapped comb, sometimes in preference to drawing a new frame, and you can end up with some interesting shapes that only really fit in one way next to each other, are difficult to move or remove, and as soon as there's nectar in any of the comb, trying to do anything about it in the apiary becomes challenging/messy/ a bad idea. Foundationless in supers seems to work well between frames of capped honey though, and given the experience of dealing with irregularly drawn comb, my suggestion would be to split the "new" frames when adding a full box of foundationless with the capped frames in an existing super already on the hive, giving you two boxes of half-and-half interleaved. Much quicker and easier than sorting out the mess later, if slightly longer than just adding a box once the comb is drawn.

*Brood box - of course this works in a box which the bees are using to raise brood, according to the time of year, configuration of hive, etc. If the bees are storing nectar on a frame or in a box that you want them to raise brood in, all of the cell extension issues for supers are still likely to occur.

My limited experience, but it is of being foundationless (rather than 50% foundation).

Precisely... it takes a bit of effort and it's not everyone's cup of tea but it works for me and even in the supers when they can build some chunky bits of comb because of the spacing it is still possible to uncap and spin them out.. I had one frame this year that I had in a super without castellated runners and I'd spaced a couple of frames a bit wide that had cells they had extended to an unbelievable extent it was twice the weight of the other ones... spun out fine.