Foundation for African bee (mellifera scutellata)

[TooBee...]

I popped into Thorne's website to have a look at their Foundation, and I ended up viewing this,

thorne.co.uk/frames-and-foundations/foundation-making?product_id=1833

I started reading the description and one line caught my attention "Cell sizes for apis mellifera mellifera (5.4mm wide) and apis mellifera scutellata (4.7mm wide) available"
I did a quick Google on "mellifera scutellata" and discovered it was the infamous African bee!

I know that Thorne sells internationally so I am guessing that this is for their African market, for beekeepers wanting to rear mellifera scutellata. Although upon writing this, it has crossed my mind that maybe some 'small cell' beekeepers are going as small as 4.7mm?

Does anyone know the reason for 4.7mm being offered by Thorne, am I right in that it's for their African customers?

 

[Finman]

.
Many beekeepers trust that small cell save bees from varroa. IT is a religion.

IT has been shown, that it does not.

Last evidence is from Oregon backyard beekeepers. Their death rate of hives was huge, 69%, if they have used small cells as only protection. Biggest in series of non chemical treatments.

 

[TooBee...]

So you think that Thorne is selling it for the 'small cell' beekeeper market, I wasn't aware that Small Cell-ers went down as far as 4.7mm.

Do you have a Link or anything to that Oregon backyard beekeepers reference / study that you mentioned?

 

[Finman]

.
Put those words into google

Oregon backyard beekeepers Winter losses 2016

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I popped into Thorne's website to have a look at their Foundation, and I ended up viewing this,

thorne.co.uk/frames-and-foundations/foundation-making?product_id=1833

I started reading the description and one line caught my attention "Cell sizes for apis mellifera mellifera (5.4mm wide) and apis mellifera scutellata (4.7mm wide) available"
I did a quick Google on "mellifera scutellata" and discovered it was the infamous African bee!

I know that Thorne sells internationally so I am guessing that this is for their African market, for beekeepers wanting to rear mellifera scutellata. Although upon writing this, it has crossed my mind that maybe some 'small cell' beekeepers are going as small as 4.7mm?

Does anyone know the reason for 4.7mm being offered by Thorne, am I right in that it's for their African customers?

What do you mean by 'infamous African bee'? if you are referring to the oft hackneyed term Africanised killer bee then you are mistaken that this is scutellata - different bee altogether.
The Infamous 'Killer bee' was a hybrid bred in South America which escaped into the wild.
Scutelata, although known to be a wee bit more defensive than our bee (just sending out a few more guards than our bees to inveestigate any threat) I have found from experience to be no different to our own bees although they differ from region to region.
Thornes sell the smaller cell foundation to satisfy the demand from the gullible who still believe in the well disproven theory that it helps against varroa.
As I was told, whether it makes a difference or not, it's what the customer asks for so we supply.
Doubt it's for the African customers. they use standard 5.4mm out there and the native bees are fine with it.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Yes beware the small cell panacea
Even Michael Bush who is the worlds most famous advocate, miniaturises his bees before he puts them in the magic small cells

 

[Millet]

.
Many beekeepers trust that small cell save bees from varroa. IT is a religion.

IT has been shown, that it does not.

Last evidence is from Oregon backyard beekeepers. Their death rate of hives was huge, 69%, if they have used small cells as only protection. Biggest in series of non chemical treatments.

They do good chains and oil even if the bee
gear is ****.

 

[TooBee...]

.
Put those words into google

Oregon backyard beekeepers Winter losses 2016

Thanks for that guidance, here's the Link for anyone interested,

pnwhoneybeesurvey.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/2017.06.06_OR-Winter-Bee-Losses-FINAL.pdf

it makes for depressing and yet perplexing reading, ... I've only quickly started reading it, but it appears 'doing nothing' to try and stop losses had the best result?

 

[user 6228]

According T. Seeley yesterday, small cells dont create hygienic/varroa tolerant bees rather some hygienic/varroa tolerant bees have small cells (i.e. scutella).

The small cell fashion is a case of a classic logical fallacy. If A implies B, B does not necessarily imply A.
Alas small cell size and hygienic/varroa tolerance are not commutative

 

[Fusion_power]

Alas small cell size and hygienic/varroa tolerance are not commutative

True, but there are other benefits to small cell. A winter cluster can only cover so much comb surface. if that comb surface is small cell, the bees can cover relatively more brood cells compared to 5.3 mm. This effect is enhanced if the combs are spaced at 31 or 32 mm which squeezes the cluster out to cover more comb surface. The negative is that it enhances swarming potential.

 

[TooBee...]

The negative is that it enhances swarming potential.

Why or / and how does it "enhance swarming potential"?

 

[Fusion_power]

The cluster expands significantly faster in the spring buildup so that the colony reaches swarm strength a few weeks earlier than if they were on regular cell plus 35 mm or 38 mm spacing. Reaching swarm strength before the main flow starts just about guarantees a swarm. I have to pull a nuc from my strongest colonies in early April to prevent them from swarming.

 

[SDM]

True, but there are other benefits to small cell. A winter cluster can only cover so much comb surface. if that comb surface is small cell, the bees can cover relatively more brood cells compared to 5.3 mm. This effect is enhanced if the combs are spaced at 31 or 32 mm which squeezes the cluster out to cover more comb surface. The negative is that it enhances swarming potential.

Only possibly true for the same size of bees, smaller bees cover less area.
Also and probably much more importantly smaller animals suffer from an increase in relative surface area, therefore heat loss from a smaller bee would be significantly higher.

 

[Finman]

Only possibly true for the same size of bees, smaller bees cover less area.
Also and probably much more importantly smaller animals suffer from an increase in relative surface area, therefore heat loss from a smaller bee would be significantly higher.

Fusion power's home science is not much valid. African bee is 10 % smaller. What is the meaning of that.... Nothing.

If you compare colonies in 5 box hive, one box is 20%.

Fusion's winter clusters are really small.

Russian bees' are normal winter clusters are 3-4 frames. They do not survive in Finland.

Sometimes 50% out of winter cluster may die in spring in my hives when they go to search pollen in bad weather.

Things are so relative.

Some queens lay only one box and some two boxes.
.
.

 

[fatshark]

Really?
Remember that these are smaller bees covering smaller cells. Mathematically I'm not certain this is significant. In addition, smaller bees have a higher surface area to volume ration, so presumably lose heat faster ...

DerekM has probably done the calculations already.

PS Interesting ... my rely below SDM despite the timestamp being earlier ... I must type a lot slower.

 

[Finman]

.
Fusion is worried about winter. He lives at same latitude as Israel.

 

[Finman]

DerekM has probably done the calculations already.
.

Without seeing that bug.

At least @frican bee is hotter than European.

 

[SDM]

PS Interesting ... my rely below SDM despite the timestamp being earlier ... I must type a lot slower.

57 mins later, not earlier. Nah, nah, na-nah nah!!

 

[fatshark]

I'm obviously still on BST ;-)

 

[Finman]

BST = best before

Somebody asked why to use small cell foundations. Do we have got an answer ?

That we know that it does not affect on varroa. We know too, that belief on that silver bullet kills more hives than keep alive.

What other reasons are? I do not believe on those explanations.