Forced into a quick split/artificial swarm

[tom8400]

Morning all checked hive Monday brood and half found qc's some sealed couldn't find queen but a lot of bees I was sure they hadn't swarmed but you never know perhaps they nipped out early morning. Put it all back together to seek advice. General plan split it, as I'd wanted to do. So yesterday I opened it up and managed to find a queen, hopefully original. Moved hive to side she's now in original spot with four frames from original hive no qc's as far as I'm aware. I put the excluder on the brood box and the honey super that's basically full and the empty one they started drawering.

Original box is to the side at 90degree it has the original brood box with a couple of qc's and then the half also has qc's I didn't squish any thinking the bees would choose. I then put on excluder and a new empty super so they have space.

All sound ok so far?

So I'm now wondering should I take the half and put it on a new floor so to speak as a nuc? The only issue is there is plenty of stores but not a busting amount of brood but it does have two qc's with larvae

Any further opinions and criticism greatly welcomed, I'm still learning and luckily with YouTube this forum and a friend I'm slowly getting the idea

 

[Erichalfbee]

The AS ( the new box with the old queen) doesn’t need four frames of brood. That a recipe for encouraging them to swarm regardless. Most people put one frame of brood in or even none. In the parent box you should mark one open cell that is in a good position and well protected. Destroy the rest. Go back 6 days later to remove the emergency cells the bees will make and to check that your marked chosen cell is still there. Close up for three weeks.
The bees in a strong colony will not choose the best queen they will swarm with the first virgin and maybe even with the second.
Make sure your ready queening colony has enough food till the foragers get going

 

[Bakerbee]

If you have a read of stedics thread sbout nucs and splits a little way down the beginners topics thees a great little article tagged in there. Hivemaker has a great way of controlling swarm impulse in the article.

 

[Stedic]

Hivemaker is going to cost me a small fortune in nuc boxes!

 

[tom8400]

Thank you all.

I never get the idea of this close up, do you mean shut them in? Is this theory so the virgin queen doesn't do a runner because she is effectively the only queen and there will be no more queen cells?


Sounds like I need to open it up again (to cold and windy today) and destroy all cells in the queenless colony. Is it better to introduce a queen?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

couldn't find queen but a lot of bees I was sure they hadn't swarmed

Oh yeah - who spun you that yarn? Have a look at these pictures and tell me whether they have swarmed or not.

 

[Curly green fingers]

The AS ( the new box with the old queen) doesn’t need four frames of brood. That a recipe for encouraging them to swarm regardless. Most people put one frame of brood in or even none. In the parent box you should mark one open cell that is in a good position and well protected. Destroy the rest. Go back 6 days later to remove the emergency cells the bees will make and to check that your marked chosen cell is still there. Close up for three weeks.
The bees in a strong colony will not choose the best queen they will swarm with the first virgin and maybe even with the second.
Make sure your ready queening colony has enough food till the foragers get going

Hi sorry to jump in on the thread great advice erica, my colony are two weeks 5 days into going through reproducing a queen so any day .QC in good position etc.. If they swarm with the new virgin queen . would it be a good idea to give that hive a new mated queen ?

 

[tom8400]

Oh yeah - who spun you that yarn? Have a look at these pictures and tell me whether they have swarmed or not.

Well I'd guess probably not,but you will tell me they have. Mine were in four boxes and as Numerous probably even more across the tops, it was more the amount on the frame faces and hanging underneath that surprised me I was placing aside as I went. I also had eggs present

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Well I'd guess probably not,but you will tell me they have. Mine were in four boxes and as Numerous probably even more across the tops, it was more the amount on the frame faces and hanging underneath that surprised me I was placing aside as I went. I also had eggs present

This was half an hour or so after they swarmed.
Queens stopping laying before swarming is a myth still propagated by the NDB and other bits of paper obsessed brigade who have not bothered changing their terms of reference since the BBKA was formed.
There were fresh eggs in there as well.
Frames were full of bees not just the tops.

 

[DanBee]

Queens stopping laying before swarming is a myth still propagated by the NDB and other bits of paper obsessed brigade who have not bothered changing their terms of reference since the BBKA was formed.

Really? Who said that? Of course there are eggs there, and some open brood, and a hell of a lot of sealed/emerging brood, generally.

If you were paying attention, you'd remember that what is said is that laying is reduced, not stopped; if you wanted more than just a soundbyte then you'd have listened/read the previous bit about how the feeding of the queen increases (on the back of spring flow income) about a month before the first swarm might issue; consequentially the queen's laying rate reaches and stays at its peak for several weeks before the first swarm might issue.

The consequence of this prolonged peak laying is that during and in the days after the first swarm has issued, there are probably 1,000 - 1,500 new bees emerging every day who, being juvenile, will congest the brood area until promoted to other tasks - that's why the post-swarm colony appears so populous, but look deeper and you see that none of that emerged brood is being backfilled with eggs.

Your photos are good, but the chip on the shoulder detracts from your message

 

[tom8400]

Well we have chaos today just got back planning to squish some and bait box one has a swarm going into it big clump on the front it's a six frame langstroth. The other two hives are extremely busy I have no idea which it came out of. Also a lot of bees checking out a empty langstroth brood box with drawn comb and some looking at the attic of the house. Looks like I may have two swarms at once going on.


All good fun and experience I'm sure

 

[Beefriendly]

Looks like I may have two swarms at once going on.
All good fun and experience I'm sure

The experience bit is where you try and manage your bees to not swarm....
In fairness no-one ever gets it 100% correct.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Really? Who said that?

Various people who profess to be expert teachers and quote their NDB notes when stating when challenged that queen stop laying before swarming. - someone lately on the BBKA forum.
I know they don't stop, as do most practical beekeepers, I have paid attention, but others who charge for their 'lessons' obviously haven't. No chip on my shoulder, why should there be? no bits of paper of no use whatsoever in the real world either.

 

[DanBee]

Various people who profess to be expert teachers and quote their NDB notes when stating when challenged that queen stop laying before swarming. - someone lately on the BBKA forum.
I know they don't stop, as do most practical beekeepers, I have paid attention, but others who charge for their 'lessons' obviously haven't. No chip on my shoulder, why should there be? no bits of paper of no use whatsoever in the real world either.

Well that's odd. I wrote the swarming material for the NDB Behaviour course, and co-wrote the Swarm Control course, and both are consistent in their descriptions of swarm preparation. Here's the summary timeline that we discuss in each course:

I don't think you can lay the blame at the door of those who teach, however appealing that may be

So come on, what's got you so riled?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Well, someone obviously thinks he knows better than you and is insisting queens go off lay before swarming, and insists it says so in the notes.
His theories on finding swarm cells and supersedure cells in the same hive are a bit offbeat as well.
Nothing's got me riled, just don't like people like this professing to be a (qualified) expert, who also apparently makes money from this, when it's pretty obvious their knowledge leaves a lot to be desired.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Well, someone obviously thinks he knows better than you and is insisting queens go off lay before swarming, and insists it says so in the notes.
His theories on finding swarm cells and supersedure cells in the same hive are a bit offbeat as well.
Nothing's got me riled, just don't like people like this professing to be a (qualified) expert, who also apparently makes money from this, when it's pretty obvious their knowledge leaves a lot to be desired.

I know who you mean and that’s exactly what he said. He said that’s what he teaches on his NDB courses. Perhaps it’s a question of degree. Some NDB courses are better than others and some NDB badge holders are more up to date than others.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Well that's odd. I wrote the swarming material for the NDB Behaviour course, and co-wrote the Swarm Control course, and both are consistent in their descriptions of swarm preparation. Here's the summary timeline that we discuss in each course:

I don't think you can lay the blame at the door of those who teach, however appealing that may be

So come on, what's got you so riled?

Lovely flow chart. Cheers