Food vs Cold

[WingCommander]

Hi all

I am a recently new beekeeper and this is my first year. I have a bit of a quandry and my 'bee mentor' is unavailable due to illness.

Towards the end of the summer I harvested from one of my 2 supers and left the other on. I then replaced the first super after harvest for the bees to clean out which they dutifully did. I then removed both supers and went through the Apiguard process. Once this was complete I placed the 2nd Super which is about 1/4 full of honey but with none capped. I placed it above the crown board with the escapes removed in the expectation that the bees would take the honey down into the brood box. This was about 6 weeks ago.

For one reason or another I have not been able to get back to remove the Super but managed to do so yesterday with a plan of putting escapes back in if needed but not wanting to open the brood box due to the cold. There was not a single bee in the Super but neither had they removed any of the honey. The bees were flying so it is not due to cold that they have not gone up (I think). My only other thought was that there was simply no room for the honey in the brood box - upon last inspection the food supplies were great.

My options, as I see them are:

1. Leave as is with the super above crown board so it is there i extra food is needed but would result in a colder hive.
2. Remove super and wrap it up until next year but I am not sure if the honey will 'keep' in uncapped cells.

A friend suggested placing the Super below the brood box but if there is no room then this surely wouldn't work.

Any suggestions/advice welcome.

 

[drex]

In this situation, living in same region as you, I would wait for a warmish day. I would cover the holes in the crownboard,remove super, then place the CB straight on top of BB. I would then lift this off the floor ( keeping CB in place) and put super on top of floor. Put BB on top of super. Add insulation over CB and leave alone until oxalic acid ( if that is your thing) in early new year. Doing it that way you have minimal disturbance, with minimal heat loss, and ensure the bees have optimum access to stores. Note there is no Queen excluder used at this time of year.

If that is too much manipulation, just take out the CB between BB and super. Make sure any holes in crown board on top of super are closed and that you have added insualtion

 

[WingCommander]

How long would you leave the hive in this configuration? I had expected them to take down at least some of the honey from the super but it doesn't seem to have happened so is it possible that there simply isn't room?

Where abouts in Essex are you?

 

[tonybloke]

for folk who put the super beneath the brood box over-winter, it's usual to remove the super from beneath the brood in early spring (late march / early april)
see a few of adam's (hebegeebees) posts for further info (use search function)
regards, Tony

 

[drex]

Hi Wingco,

I agree with above. I am near Clacton

 

[Easy Beesy]

I agree with your friends advice - super below BB with crown board on top of BB with insulation under roof. All with the least disturbance to cluster.

 

[isc26]

Hi had a similar dilema about a few weeks ago.

In the end left the super with store on (above), closed up the centre crown board hole with a porter bee escape to help keep warmth in and placed an old CD over the second hole with the mini centre hole just the right size to let bees in/out.

The idea was give them access to honey stores and not add fondant, to reduce heat loss and keep disturbance to a minimum.

Hope it works!

 

[Suzi Q]

Isc26, the bees won't be able to reach the super where the stores are when the weather gets colder.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Isc26, the bees won't be able to reach the super where the stores are when the weather gets colder.

as far as they're concerned the super will be 'outside' so they won't venture in there. Either put it under the brood or take it off altogether and put a lump of fondant over the feed hole if you think they're short of stores.
Also, don't use a porter escape to 'block' one of the holes in the crown board it'll only get all propolised up and unusable - just put a piece of plastic or thin plywood over the hole.

 

[oliver90owner]

Hope it works!

I dare say you do. If it does, please don't come back on here advocating such practice!

 

[WingCommander]

The majority recommend placing below the brood box. Does this add to warming issues as the bees have more space to heat up? If I were to just remove it would the honey 'keep' over the winter if I wrapped it up in cling film and a few towels and kept in a dry garage?

Also someone recommend insulating above the crown board - what would you suggest using?

 

[Finman]

.
You have one hive to watch over.

One solution is that you add the super when the main winter food is nearly finnish. No need to put all just now.

The tight room saves bees' energy. Otherwise they heat the empty loft all the time.

External insulatation saves food about 30% compared to uninsulated hives.

After 2 months winter in UK is almost over.
Actually food consumption starts when the hive has brood and it gets pollen from nature.

 

[oliver90owner]

Does this add to warming issues as the bees have more space to heat up?

Putting it under the brood box will not add to heating requirements - think OMF!

It is quite important that the head space above the cluster is kept to a minimum - managed hives have air flow possibilities which would not exist in a natural structure. Natural here meaning just that, not of those that claim to keep bees 'naturally'.

Those stores at the ceiling level will largely still be there when the bees start to brood for the spring expansion; space there, all winter, is a definite down-side.

 

[Finman]

The majority recommend placing below the brood box. Does this add to warming issues as the bees have more space to heat up?

If I were to just remove it would the honey 'keep' over the winter if I wrapped it up in cling film and a few towels and kept in a dry garage?


Also someone recommend insulating above the crown board - what would you suggest using?

He is many different things...

Too much space in the hive makes the hive room cool and

- bees must heat empty spaces
- in a loose room respiration moisture condensates inside and it generates mold. Pollen stores are in biggest danger. Then used brood cells are easy to ruin
- it is more than normal that extra boxes are away from the hive. But there is no idea to wrap combs into cling film of add towels.

Dry garage is good but what is the temp? If the carage is warm, there is a danger of wax moth.

Normal hive has 5 boxes and you should find out what you do with extra 5 or more boxes in winter.

To make a proper store cabin outside is one possibility.

 

[drex]

I am with o90o.
Hot air rises, put insulation above this.
The super underneath then acts as a buffer between this and the cold air from the OMF.
Not rocket science.

What wingco decides to do will surely depend on how many stores he has in the BB.

 

[Finman]

.
The super underneath then acts as a buffer between this and the cold air from the OMF.
Not rocket science.

.

But it is a wrong place to store extra honey. Rubbish and dead bees from upstairs and condensated moisture mixed .... not nice to look in spring.



.

 

[oliver90owner]

But it is a wrong place to store extra honey. Rubbish and dead bees from upstairs and condensated moisture mixed

Agreed, but the best solution for a bad situation, it would seem. I am like you - I want the stores where the bees would put them naturally.

At least if it were to come warm the bees would move it upstairs if there is space, inefficient as it is.

As usual, easier to get it right in the first place than rectify later.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Also someone recommend insulating above the crown board - what would you suggest using?

Kingspan/celotex is about the best, sheets of expanded polystyrene all ABOVE THE CROWN BOARD if you need to feed fondant put it in a takeaway container and cut a hole for it to fit in in the kingspan so it sits over the feed hole.
You could also pack bubble wrap, packing polystyrene or anything like that in a bag in an empty super, again put above the crown board

 

[Finman]

But it is a wrong place to store extra honey. Rubbish and dead bees from upstairs and condensated moisture mixed

- I want the stores where the bees would put them naturally.


.

Just now, I have feeded hives quite few. I use old capped crystallized honey.
Of course its place is over the cluster.

Cluster instinct is to rise up to get food.
Bees have not frogramming "go down if food is finish or seach everywhere".
That is why often bees starve out over the food store.

Or cluster may eate itself to the left side and dies even if the right side frfames are full of food.

.Big healthy hive does ....yes yes

BUT no one knows in which condition the hive is in spring in these varroa times.

.

 

[WingCommander]

So with a freak day of 16 degrees today in Sth Cambridgeshire I took the advice on board and stuck the super below the BB. I also took a chance to look in the BB briefly and the stores were fantastic, more than I have seen all year, including at last inspection so it may be that is why they haven't fetched the honey from the Super.

That said there was some activity in the Super when i opened it up so that is good too.

Was nice to get into the hive on a relatively warm still day and there were still bees bringing pollen in and also still some brood so my queen appears to still be laying.

Would you now suggest leaving the Super in place until the early spring then maybe sticking it back on top?