Fogging

[Ammerbee]

Is anyone using fogging for varroa treatment - I've read stuff about the use of mineral oil...can anyone enlighten me please?

 

[Beefriendly]

https://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=17946&highlight=fogging+varroa

https://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=15001

 

[For want of a better word]

Is anyone using fogging for varroa treatment - I've read stuff about the use of mineral oil...can anyone enlighten me please?

I would not use mineral oil, paraffin or petrol... the Varomor instructions say to use water of neat ethanol ( ethyl alcohol... C2H5OH.. 98%) not Vodka!!
But that's not fogging per se... as the ( OA) is vaporised ( the alcohol is merely a carrier / diluent)

Yeghed da

 

[madasafish]

Waste of time. Performed by people who do no scientific testing.

 

[Beefriendly]

Perpetuated by eegits who persist in insisting that evaporation of a solvent leaving a chemical deposit behind is the same as sublimation.
Not in any chemists books it aint.

 

[oxnatbees]

As petrol and diesel fumes are highly toxic to bees, I would avoid this.

 

[For want of a better word]

I would not use mineral oil, paraffin or petrol... the Varomor instructions say to use water of neat ethanol ( ethyl alcohol... C2H5OH.. 98%) not Vodka!!
But that's not fogging per se... as the ( OA) is vaporised ( the alcohol is merely a carrier / diluent)

Yeghes da

Answers from the TWITS as expected... not of much use..
Cream or Jam on top,,,,,?
As much as a useful answer to the OP !!

Yeghes da

 

[Beefriendly]

not of much use..
Cream or Jam on top,,,,,?

Might I suggest you consul a local primary school chemistry teacher who might be able to explain to you that sublimation is a transitional change of state from a solid directly to vapour.
Your fogger is blowing out a high temperature alcohol/oxalic acid solution. Because it is so hot the alcohol is evaporating almost instantaneously leaving a residue of dissolved Oxalic acid behind. You cannot get sublimation if your substance is already dissolved in something.
Shirley with a degree in Environmental Science you cannot be this thick?
Can you???

 

[wightbees]

glycerine mixed with OA will fog

 

[For want of a better word]

Might I suggest you consul a local primary school chemistry teacher who might be able to explain to you that sublimation is a transitional change of state from a solid directly to vapour.
Your fogger is blowing out a high temperature alcohol/oxalic acid solution. Because it is so hot the alcohol is evaporating almost instantaneously leaving a residue of dissolved Oxalic acid behind. You cannot get sublimation if your substance is already dissolved in something.
Shirley with a degree in Environmental Science you cannot be this thick?
Can you???

Is English your first language?
The process is to get OA into the hive.
I expect you would need to speak to a physicist rather than a chemist to get the answer to how OA reacts when heated to a high temperature in a carrier ( Solution) of OA in alcohol. One would expect that the OA is in fact turned into a gaseous form and once cooled turns into a solid ( Sublimation) NO Chemistry involved!

Personal attacks are not necessary... but it seems to be something you like to do if someone disagrees with you?

Nos da

 

[Beefriendly]

One would expect that the OA is in fact turned into a gaseous form and once cooled turns into a solid ( Sublimation) NO Chemistry involved!

The correct term for a gas turning directly into a solid is deposition.
Sublimation is when a solid.....ohh I give up..... have it your own incorrect way.

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=g...2.69i57j0l5.5693j0j4&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

 

[Finman]

The correct term for a gas turning directly into a solid is deposition.
Sublimation is when a solid.....ohh I give up..... have it your own incorrect way.

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=g...2.69i57j0l5.5693j0j4&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

When fogging, is the stuff heated?
.

 

[Hivemaker.]

is the stuff heated?
.

What stuff ?

 

[birdsandbees]

Sublimation is the phase transition of a substance directly from the solid to the gas phase without passing through the intermediate liquid phase. Sublimation is an endothermic process that occurs at temperatures and pressures below a substance's triple point in its phase diagram.

so both are correct really, Sumbimation to turn into a solid gas then deposition once its in the hive, the bit we have to do being sublimation which is why its referred to as such.

 

[For want of a better word]

The correct term for a gas turning directly into a solid is deposition.
Sublimation is when a solid.....ohh I give up..... have it your own incorrect way.

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=g...2.69i57j0l5.5693j0j4&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

Whatever you do with your four colonies is up to you!

Just stop dissin' everyone and anyone who dares to disagree with you... how many brooms did you get through when doing your janitorial duties in the Stateside institute???

Nos da

 

[For want of a better word]

Sublimation is the phase transition of a substance directly from the solid to the gas phase without passing through the intermediate liquid phase. Sublimation is an endothermic process that occurs at temperatures and pressures below a substance's triple point in its phase diagram.

so both are correct really, Sumbimation to turn into a solid gas then deposition once its in the hive, the bit we have to do being sublimation which is why its referred to as such.

In the Varomor device the OA is dissolved in 98% ethanol at a known concentration.
The alcohol and OA solution is pumped at low pressure into a very hot coil.
Now is the alcohol immediately turned into carbon oxygen and hydrogen gas, and the OA turned into a vapour....
The output from the open end of the apparatus settles onto a cold watch glass as a powder.
A question for Professor Lowry, my tutor in Physical Chemistry, when I did my Science degree!!!

Answeres on the back of a £10.00 not please!!

Yeghes da

 

[Finman]

glycerine mixed with OA will fog

When you heat glyserol, you get very bad poison acrolein.
.

 

[wessexmario]

a question occurs while we're on the pedantics of oxalic acid.

Consider two processes:

- normal vaping... Oxalic Acid heated to gaseous form, it cools in the hive to solid crystals, and acts on contact with the varroa.

- Fine Oxalic Acid powder sprinkled into the hive at ambient temperature.

Does anyone know any reason why the second process would not work?
After all, when you dribble, the oxalic acid is not heated above ambient temperature and it seems to be nearly as effective as vaping.

Is vaping just a means of transport? If so, grinding Oxalic Acid crystals into a fine powder and sprinkling it into the hive would be a far safer way to apply it rather than have to use PPA against the risk of inhalation, and less impact on the bees than pouring a cold solution and wetting them.

 

[wightbees]

Found this interesting Finny : )

Glycerol decomposes into acrolein at ~535 F (~280 C). Acrolein is an aldehyde that is a decomposition product of glycerol. Glycerol is a basic component of a triglyceride. Basically fats in foods are composed of long chain fatty acids that are bound, in triplicate, to glycerol. Each glycerol can hold three fatty acids, which may be identical or may be different. As an ester, triglycerides can decompose into an alcohol and an acid (in this case, a free fatty acid) when heat is applied. There are probably other reactions that occur; maybe an organic chemist in the audience can enlighten us. The temperature at which this decomposition occurs is related to the type of fatty acids that are bound to the glycerol. Once the triglycerides decompose into free fatty acids and glycerol, the glycerol itself may decompose into acrolein if more heat is applied. You may have heard of a "smoke point" for cooking oils. Basically when you heat a cooking oil, you gradually cause the triglycerides in the oil to decompose into glycerol and free fatty acids. Further heating causes the glycerol (and the free fatty acids) to decompose (and combust, if you heat enough), which causes smoke and an acrid smell. The smell is caused by aldehydes like acrolein. This is also why once you smoke an oil, you should throw it out - those decomposition products are bitter, and frankly toxic, so you shouldn't eat them. Different oils smoke at different temperatures because the fatty acid content differs, and also oils that are more refined (think virgin olive oil versus purified oil) have less impurities that initialize decomposition reactions at lower temperatures.

Anyway, point is that pure glycerol is pretty stable until high (~500 F) temperature is reached. If glycerol decomposed into acrolein in appreciable quantities, you'd probably smell it. My guess is that the name acrolein derives in some way from the root word "acrid", because that's what it smells like.

From what I can tell, fog machines work (generally, there are different types) by introducing a proprietary smoke liquid, then heat is applied to vaporize the liquid. The liquid appears to be a mixture of glycerol and water (or some such). It's important to stress that you do not appear to be creating smoke, which is a suspension of solid particles in a gas. It seems what you are actually doing is creating a liquid-air aerosol. That is, you flash heat the water portion of the smoke liquid, which creates very fine droplets of glycerol that remain suspended in air. This has the appearance of smoke because fine particles scatter light. (This is very similar to what happens with dry ice, another popular method of creating "smoke" - carbon dioxide gas liberated from dry ice when it is put into water is very cold, which causes condensation of water in air to form small, suspended droplets, which scatter light in much the same way). Glycerol is probably used in this mixture, because it is relatively stable, nontoxic, and has (I guess) surface tension properties that allow it to form stable aerosols. The problem with dry ice fog is that once the fog is away from the vicinity of the dry ice, the fog warms, and the suspended water droplets re-evaporate and disappear. Thus dry ice fogs do not linger for very long. Dry ice is probably also more expensive than glycerol.

So, my GUESS is that the fog machine applies enough heat to flash-boil water in the smoke mixture, but not enough heat to decompose glycerol. If glycerol was being decomposed in appreciable quantities, you'd smell the aldehyde decomposition products pretty vividly. Therefore I would personally have little concern using a fog machine.

That said, it's possible that some acrolein or other decomposition products are formed at levels below the ability of the human nose to detect them. I have no knowledge of what the toxicity level of aerosolized acrolein is compared to its detection threshold, so I cannot offer any scientific guidance about whether fog machines pose a threat to your health, either chronic or acute, and you're probably not going to find anyone here who will give you a definitive yes or no on that score. Mostly because this information may simply not be available, and even if it were, the chemists here are not in the habit of making safety declarations for consumer products. That's a liability issue on top of the scientific uncertainty.

 

[wightbees]

Note, no need to go to that Temperature