Fighting Varroa

[Graymich]

This is my first post to this Forum.
I am a new beekeeper - Having purchased a 6 frame 14x12 nuc in May. On collection, I was told they had Varroa and should treat straight away. I put them in a 10 frame 14x12 WBC with 2 strips of Apistan for 6 weeks. I counted more than 2000 dead mites in the period onto the varroa tray. In June the hive swarmed - I caught it and housed it in a further WBC 14X12 and split the remainder of the original hive. I now have 3 hives. I also continued the Apistan treatment in the 2 new hives to the end of the 6 week course. Throughout this time I was seeing some DWV. In September I treated with Apiguard for 2 weeks and replaced with new tubs for a further 4 weeks. Two of the hives dropped more than 3000 varroa each over the period - the swarm dropped about 1000 as they didnt start with brood. In October I knew that all 3 hives still had varroa at the end of the treatment but decided to feed them to ensure they had enough stores for winter. By November the hives were all well stocked with honey so I decided to treat with Oxalic Acid via Sublimox. As per manufactures guidance I have delivered 6x vapes at 4 day intervals (last vape was yesterday). Two hives dropped about 1500 varroa each over the period and now are down to about 2 a day - the 3rd has dropped about 400 but continues to drop around 30 a day - this hive probably still has emerging brood.

Any advise please.

Is it always this difficult to kill the little b____rs
Should I do another vape to all 3 at the end December when they should all be broodless.
What would you apply as a varroa treatment next year.
When would you apply that treatment.

The hives are all in my garden in Hampshire so I can check on them regularly although I am not keen to do a alcohol wash.

Thanks

 

[Boston Bees]

Welcome, and well done on dealing with the varroa load in such a determined and comprehensive way this year.

I certainly wouldn't buy another nuc from that supplier.

Other people are more experienced in vaping so I will leave it to them to comment on what to do next year.

 

[Swarm]

I agree with Boston Bees, your approach is commendable, well done.
I would vape them as a mid winter treatment and monitor mite load as they build in spring. When the supers come off, use the multi vape approach.
Those are high numbers, though others have mentioned similar and you just have to be persistent.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I counted more than 2000 dead mites in the period onto the varroa tray.

Did you actually count all those mites, or counted a sample and extrapolated using the Beebase mite calculator? if the latter, as well as being highly inaccurate it's used using the natural mite mortality drop, obviously using it whilst treating is going to increase the 'count' significantly

 

[Graymich]

Did you actually count all those mites, or counted a sample and extrapolated using the Beebase mite calculator? if the latter, as well as being highly inaccurate it's used using the natural mite mortality drop, obviously using it whilst treating is going to increase the 'count' significantly

I know I am sad but yes I actually counted every mite every day from every hive and recorded it

 

[user 819]

There is known resistance using Apistan or Bayvoral so the mite count and varroa persistence is likely be reflected by continual high drops. For now the vaping is the way to go though you can eke out the treatment to every 5th day. Following a 3rd or 4th vape if I still see cicra20 mites dropping I tend to cease vaping. If higher they get an other vape, even with vaping if mite drop remains high then one could consider re- infestation via another source but certainly not this time of year.

Pretty poor show on the nuc seller to have sold the bees in such a state, money for ole rope without much due diligence in the sale of the package.
I would leave them for now and vape them around the winter solstice.

 

[Graymich]

Thanks I will as recommended - leave them alone for now and vape once at the winter solstice.
I have to say I think the Sublimox is excellent. I did attach a silicone tube over the copper pipe - it doesnt burn/kill the bees any more if they try to defend against it.

 

[madasafish]

Is it always this difficult to kill the little b____rs

Once you get the levels down and treat twice a year (Late August after honey crop removed and December) levels tend to be easily controlled. But if raising Queens don't use Queens from the hive with big drops - you want to select those with low drops .

 

[Sanntos]

What would you apply as a varroa treatment next year.

As others have said, well done indeed.
Since counting every mite is a part time job it would be better to reconsider on alcohol wash.
Learn how to apply three different treatments, f ex oxalic acid, formic acid and Apiguard/thymol

 

[Murox]

Welcome and well done you. Hope they all come through into spring.

 

[Graymich]

As others have said, well done indeed.
Since counting every mite is a part time job it would be better to reconsider on alcohol wash.
Learn how to apply three different treatments, f ex oxalic acid, formic acid and Apiguard/thymol

Thanks
Having just retired I have had the time to count the Varroa - I am sure the novelty will wear off

 

[drex]

I put my monitoring boards in about ten days ago, not to check on varroa so much but more to look for brood cappings. Both actually were minimal. It has been cold since then, but we have a couple of mild days coming, so I am doing my midwinter vape tomorrow. A bit earlier than usual, but I am going with the signs.

 

[pargyle]

Thanks
Having just retired I have had the time to count the Varroa - I am sure the novelty will wear off

Not now ... it's too late - have a look at Sugar rolls. Just as accurate as alcohol washes but does not kill the bees, the inspection board is notoriously unreliable.

I used this bit of kit for my sugar rolls. Very easy to do if you follow the video.

Varroa Tester 3in1 - Welcome to Abelo's Beekeeping Supplies (Reduced in price for Black Friday)



Personally, with bees that prone to varroa infestation, if they continue to show such heavy loads in spring, I would seriously consider what you are doing. I'm in Hampshire, don't treat my bees for varroa and I have never seen an infestation level of anywhere near the levels you are recording. We have varroa here and there are always some levels of varroa in my colonies but it's not excessive and my bees are fine. I'm not suggesting you should go treatment free ... but you have really hammered them with treatments this year and I'm not convinced that the stress induced by such intensive treatments (witnessed by the lack of effect they seem to have had) has done the colonies any favours,

I'd leave them be over winter - if what you have already done with them has not sorted the problem and you are still seeing DWV they may be a lost cause. Check for varroa levels in Spring (properly with a sugar roll) if they survive winter and before you start another regime of treatment give them a chance to build up.

I don't know where you got your initial nuc from but no responsible beekeeper should be selling bees to a newcomer (or any beekeeper for that matter) and admitting that they are already heavily infested.

 

[Graymich]

Not now ... it's too late - have a look at Sugar rolls. Just as accurate as alcohol washes but does not kill the bees, the inspection board is notoriously unreliable.

I used this bit of kit for my sugar rolls. Very easy to do if you follow the video.

Varroa Tester 3in1 - Welcome to Abelo's Beekeeping Supplies (Reduced in price for Black Friday)



Personally, with bees that prone to varroa infestation, if they continue to show such heavy loads in spring, I would seriously consider what you are doing. I'm in Hampshire, don't treat my bees for varroa and I have never seen an infestation level of anywhere near the levels you are recording. We have varroa here and there are always some levels of varroa in my colonies but it's not excessive and my bees are fine. I'm not suggesting you should go treatment free ... but you have really hammered them with treatments this year and I'm not convinced that the stress induced by such intensive treatments (witnessed by the lack of effect they seem to have had) has done the colonies any favours,

I'd leave them be over winter - if what you have already done with them has not sorted the problem and you are still seeing DWV they may be a lost cause. Check for varroa levels in Spring (properly with a sugar roll) if they survive winter and before you start another regime of treatment give them a chance to build up.

I don't know where you got your initial nuc from but no responsible beekeeper should be selling bees to a newcomer (or any beekeeper for that matter) and admitting that they are already heavily infested.

Thanks for the sugar roll video - looks worth considering
I havnt seen any DWV since the first varroa treatment in May/June but they have been hammered over the last 30 weeks with 15 weeks of various varroa treatments - time to give them a rest I think.
The nuc came from a Local bee supplier that I thought had a very good reputation - enough said I have moved on from being peeved about that.

 

[user 819]

15 weeks of treatment from 30 weeks is very invasive stuff, the Apistan was likely pretty much useless and this will have tainted the combs. It is best to stick with soft organic acid base stuff and Oxalic based is the way a lot of us on here go simply for the ease and unobtrusiveness of delivery method.

 

[Graymich]

15 weeks of treatment from 30 weeks is very invasive stuff, the Apistan was likely pretty much useless and this will have tainted the combs. It is best to stick with soft organic acid base stuff and Oxalic based is the way a lot of us on here go simply for the ease and unobtrusiveness of delivery method.

Yes - my inexperience using Apistan as the first varroa treatment hasn’t helped to get this under control quickly. I won’t be using it again. What is the problem with it tainting the combs?

 

[pargyle]

Yes - my inexperience using Apistan as the first varroa treatment hasn’t helped to get this under control quickly. I won’t be using it again. What is the problem with it tainting the combs?

The active ingredient is Fluvalinate ... there was some evidence of residues being left in wax that turned up in foundation but I don't think it's a massive problem if you used it in accordance with the manufacturers directions - the problem previously was that people were leaving the strips in the hive for far longer than they should be and using them as the sole miticide year after year. It's one of the reasons why varroa have become resistant to it. There is some good evidence that Apivar is following in the same vein ...

There appears to be no resistant build up to any of the organic acid treatments and in particular OA. OA is also naturally occurring and there is no build up in the wax.

 

[Graymich]

The active ingredient is Fluvalinate ... there was some evidence of residues being left in wax that turned up in foundation but I don't think it's a massive problem if you used it in accordance with the manufacturers directions - the problem previously was that people were leaving the strips in the hive for far longer than they should be and using them as the sole miticide year after year. It's one of the reasons why varroa have become resistant to it. There is some good evidence that Apivar is following in the same vein ...

There appears to be no resistant build up to any of the organic acid treatments and in particular OA. OA is also naturally occurring and there is no build up in the wax.

Thanks - do you think I could just treat using OA twice a year or should I use Apiguard as the other treatment

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Thanks - do you think I could just treat using OA twice a year

Done properly - yes

 

[pargyle]

Thanks - do you think I could just treat using OA twice a year or should I use Apiguard as the other treatment

If you are sublimating using OA then twice a year is ample ... the important one is after the honey has been taken off and before the winter bees are being produced. The perceived wisdom on here is three vapes at five day intervals. I know a lot of people who just do this treatment and then check as the colony develops in spring to ensure that the pre-winter treatment has been effective. Keeping an eye on the varroa levels using sugar rolls later in the season will indicate if the varroa levels through the season are rising and you can do further treatments if required.

I don't feel you need both OA and Apiguard but ,,,, ask any five beekeepers and you will get six different answers.

What you do need to do next season is try and discover why your existing colonies have such a propensity for collecting varroa mites ...., whereabouts in Hampshire is your apiary (general area not a postcode !). Have you registered on beebase and had a look to see how many apiaries are in your vicinity ?