Feed the swarm? Or not?

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Terry G - put on a feeder and let the bees decide. Simple as. If they need it they will take it.

No - if it's there they will take it, regardless - give them loads of syrup and they will fill up the comb with stores as they go along before HM has a chance to lay.. You could end up with a totally stores bound colony so then............they'll swarm again. If there's forage around they don't need syrup. They won't 'invariably' go into wax making overdrive - especially if the weather's a little changeable.

 

[itma]

No - if it's there they will take it, regardless - give them loads of syrup and they will fill up the comb with stores as they go along before HM has a chance to lay.. You could end up with a totally stores bound colony so then............they'll swarm again. If there's forage around they don't need syrup. They won't 'invariably' go into wax making overdrive - especially if the weather's a little changeable.

Invariably, bees do nothing invariably!

But to promote wax making rather than storage, make sure its thin syrup, 45% sugar by weight or less (like old-style "1:1" - a pound of sugar to a pint of water), and that the availability is continuous. A warm (poly?) hive may help.

Once they drop out of wax-making mode (as when the syrup feeder runs dry), they won't go back into it -- and if they take more syrup then, they'll be trying to store it.

So, thin syrup and 12 hourly checks/refills unless you have a multi-gallon feeder.
And if it is a week after the swarm was hived before starting feeding, you've likely missed your chance.



I recently came across this excellent old (2001?) Adrian Waring article, full of great ideas on using swarms. Even suggests a way of getting them to draw sections for him. (He didn't care much for swarm Qs and drones …)

 

[beeno]

Invariably, bees do nothing invariably!

But to promote wax making rather than storage, make sure its thin syrup, 45% sugar by weight or less (like old-style "1:1" - a pound of sugar to a pint of water), and that the availability is continuous. A warm (poly?) hive may help.

Once they drop out of wax-making mode (as when the syrup feeder runs dry), they won't go back into it -- and if they take more syrup then, they'll be trying to store it.

So, thin syrup and 12 hourly checks/refills unless you have a multi-gallon feeder.
And if it is a week after the swarm was hived before starting feeding, you've likely missed your chance.



I recently came across this excellent old (2001?) Adrian Waring article, full of great ideas on using swarms. Even suggests a way of getting them to draw sections for him. (He didn't care much for swarm Qs and drones …)

Hi itma,
Nice to see you back on the forum. I would be interested in reading Adrian Waring's article. Any possibility of a link? Trying to set up a production colony and got a swarm from them which I will unite in due course (less Q). Thanks for the tip on keeping the 1:1 on stream, better check this afternoon.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Invariably, bees do nothing invariably!

That's what I said
We'll have to agree to disagree on this one Dougal - fresh swarm in a box - collected less than an hour after they landed, 1:1 (and let's not spout all this tosh about pints or litres!) given, what did they do? store it. don't feed unless they need feed end of.
Don't care what Eddie Waring says

 

[itma]

... I would be interested in reading Adrian Waring's article. Any possibility of a link? ...

Dunno!
It was in Beecraft, April 2001. (A box full of old bee magazines has newly come into my hands, and that was the second one I looked at. Gold I tell you!)

That's what I said
We'll have to agree to disagree on this one Dougal - fresh swarm in a box - collected less than an hour after they landed, 1:1 (and let's not spout all this tosh about pints or litres!) given, what did they do? store it. don't feed unless they need feed end of.

Emyr, I think that feeding within an hour of landing is too soon - they'll still be full of honey!
However, in order to store thin syrup, it has to be evaporated down, which needs comb area - which, if they are given foundation, they will have to construct.
Once they have committed to the new box, and consumed their on-board stores, giving the swarm thin syrup and foundation is a great way to get comb drawn. It occurs to me that removing the lower QX and starting syrup could be done at the same visit.
And for the new beekeeper, drawn comb is a precious and scarce resource.



It is certainly important that the syrup be thin.
Only last week, I saw a swarm that had been fed what the beek claimed was "one to one", and they had certainly stored lots of it.
However, on further enquiry it turned out that his idea of "one to one" involved adding water to get back to (IIRC) the original volume of the sugar crystals … some volumetric jiggery pokery that had produced rather strong syrup --- hence my insistence on 'thin' syrup and my new preference for saying "45% sugar by weight" rather than "one to one", as the latter seems to be rather widely and creatively misunderstood.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Emyr, I think that feeding within an hour of landing is too soon - they'll still be full of honey!

I never said that did I? i was just replying to your comment on one week old swarms. It was done when the QX was taken off a couple of days later and it was definitely thin. they drew out qa few frames and then busily stuffed them full of honey giving queenie little room to lay. When feeding stopped they eventually started to rationalise stores/comb.

You are never going to agree with this. But my opinion is give them a little syrup at the start then, unless there is seriously poor weather or a dearth - let them do what comes naturally - they were doing it long before we started to interfere. Telling people to 'feed,feed, feed' especially beginners is unwise and counterproductive IMHO

 

[itma]

I never said that did I? i was just replying to your comment on one week old swarms. It was done when the QX was taken off a couple of days later and it was definitely thin. they drew out qa few frames and then busily stuffed them full of honey giving queenie little room to lay. When feeding stopped they eventually started to rationalise stores/comb.

You are never going to agree with this. But my opinion is give them a little syrup at the start then, unless there is seriously poor weather or a dearth - let them do what comes naturally - they were doing it long before we started to interfere. Telling people to 'feed,feed, feed' especially beginners is unwise and counterproductive IMHO

My apologies for my interpretation of your comma as indicating an immediate continuation of the events related. The break of a couple of days wasn't apparent to me!

Yes, it is tricky for beginners with a swarm.
I'm not urging "feed feed feed" regardless.
I'm indicating that, as long as the comb-drawing urge lasts or can be sustained, its a good thing to exploit - and a continuous supply of thin syrup is part of the means of exploitation.
However, as indicated previously, feeding - on its own - is not enough to ensure that they keep up the good work. And the tricky bit (apart from noticing when the comb-drawing stops and the work turns to storage) is explaining how far one can go with shuffling/changing frames to keep giving the bees useful stuff to do.
Unless (like Adrian Waring) you aren't interested in the swarm Q, you should be limiting any such shuffling to a prime swarm (another qualification that I ensured was in my initial response). If you are wanting the VQ mated, minimise disruption and intrusion. But if she is an old girl, or for whatever reason not part of your plans, then your scope is much greater.

And I am going to agree that your advice is safe and simple - it doesn't leave much scope for cock-ups by beginners.
I do however believe that anyone mentoring a beginner can ease their progress by helping them to maximise the amount of comb that the swarm draws. But this isn't something for every beginner on their own with a swarm. (This thread isn't in the beginners section yet is it?)
And I certainly do think that this exploitation is the sort of thing that any moderately experienced beek ought to doing. Maybe we should be mentioning this alongside Bailey comb changes when the talk turns to replacing old comb!