Expiry date for winter bees

[beeno]

Hi all,
Has anyone out there got a proper grasp on when my winter bees will expire. Some sources state that they live as long as 6-8 months.
By way of background information, I am not chasing any crop or an early crop, but would like my bees to respond to the rhythm of life as much as possible without risking their demise of course. Thus I am confident that I had a good complement of winter bees born in October (remember Finman telling us what you have in your brood frames now are your winter bees). At the time of OA in December/January my colonies were probably all broodless and some have had a tiny bit of brood since. No real build up since early Feb for obvious reasons as they cannot get out to collect pollen and no pollen stored, so no wear or tear apart from survival. Buying pollen patties on Tuesday or can I afford to wait for the real thing? Thanks.

 

[beebopalula]

@09:00 on 01 05 2013

 

[itma]

Piece of string?

The healthier (and the later) the winter bees, the longer the life they can expect.

Summer bees have a sort of "airframe flying hours" limitation. I guess the harder winter bees have to shiver, the less time they will last.

I think there will be scope for canny beeks to assist early foraging by careful feeding as the foraging force may be severely depleted.

 

[oliver90owner]

How often have I written that beekeeping is not about dates?

It is all about seasons, weather, observations etc. Finman's bees are more likely near the eight months, UK could be anything.

The source is absolutely correct it could be....as long as...

If you actually read what it says, your answer is there.

 

[Finman]

It is all about seasons, weather, observations etc. Finman's bees are more likely near the eight months, UK could be anything.

.

Oliver is right. Who knows? Every hive is individual.

I have not either expire date in my bees.

2 days ago I looked a hive which was quite big a month ago.
Now it has only handfull. It seems that it has nosema and bees have flyed out to die.

Couple of years ago I had a hive which had 3 frames of bees and a whole frame of brood.
After a month later they had only one frame of bees and the queen did not layed any more. The hive had nosema.


Some hives stay nicely in the cluster. They are like dead.
Some hives rear brood and they try to get water even in 0-weather. They try to make cleansing flights too and many of them cannot return. They meet big losses before new bees start to emerge.

It is not rare that I loose half of my bees during April when bees try to flye in low temperatures.

It depends how much bees have afford to loose members.


Every spring I have "coffee cup colonies". They have only value of the queen.
I must take a frame of bees from another hives to aid them over April.
In May I get a frame of emerging bees from big hives. But the big hive needs too its first hives to compensate those who will die during next 2-3 weeks. At the end of May my hives have not asingle wintered bee.

 

[Finman]

Piece of string?

The healthier (and the later) the winter bees, the longer the life they can expect.

.

Healthy bees do that and that. But bees are seldom healthy after this kind of winter what you have there. And that summer too.
I think that many of your bee strains do not stand long winters. Those which try to make brood all the time, they are in big troubles. For example NZ bee strains do not survive here over winter.

Long winter makes things worse that cold winters.
Big cluster stands almost what ever if it has food.

Once I kept a hive alive over winter when it brooded all the time. I added honey and pollen, but finally before spring, it collapsed.

.

.

 

[mbc]

Approximately 750 hrs after the hypopharangeal glands re activate.

 

[beeno]

Piece of string?

The healthier (and the later) the winter bees, the longer the life they can expect.

Summer bees have a sort of "airframe flying hours" limitation. I guess the harder winter bees have to shiver, the less time they will last.

I think there will be scope for canny beeks to assist early foraging by careful feeding as the foraging force may be severely depleted.

Hi itma,
I am sure most of the UK has fondant on their hives by now whether they need it or not. Mine do and they need it. It just strikes me that we are happy to accept approx. six weeks life of a summer bee, but we are much more hazy about the life span of winter bees and they are more important. I seem to recall that Finmans take on this was that brood rearing was the determinant factor as to how long they lasted and they have not done a lot of this of late due to the weather. Obviously, my question is based on the assumptions of viable size colonies in the first place, healthy colonies etc. etc. Surely, 'long life' experienced beeks must have worked this out or is it all belts and braces attitudes and chasing the OSR?

 

[beeno]

How often have I written that beekeeping is not about dates?

It is all about seasons, weather, observations etc. Finman's bees are more likely near the eight months, UK could be anything.

The source is absolutely correct it could be....as long as...

If you actually read what it says, your answer is there.

Hi Oliver,
Excuse my journalistic writing, but perhaps if you read more than the heading you might come up with a better answer than 'UK could be anything' bearing in mind your years of experience.

 

[Cazza]

Surely, 'long life' experienced beeks must have worked this out or is it all belts and braces attitudes and chasing the OSR?

Hi Beeno

I wouldn't qualify as "life long" but I have overwintered bees for over 15 years.

Up til now, I've never needed to know how long winter bees last as Spring has always arrived at a sensible time.
I'm not sure that "knowing" would really help anyway. Not a lot I can do to influence this that I don't already do. All I can do is ensure my bees are healthy as possible all year round, ensure they have stores and provide a pollen and sugar source when required if the weather is as it is at the moment.
Cazza

 

[REDWOOD]

Approximately 750 hrs after the hypopharangeal glands re activate.

And that happens when bees are in contact with brood

 

[BeeJayBee]

And that happens when bees are in contact with brood

Any use?

From http://jeb.biologists.org/content/212/23/i.2.full

... colonies that had not experienced brood or pheromone had survived best, while the hives that had been provided with both brood and pheromone had the worst survival rates. It was the smell of brood — brood pheromone — that regulated the bees' vitellogenin levels and longevity.​

Maybe this means that colonies that were brooding around Christmas will have the poorest survival rates this year, although you can't discount varroa loads (more about that here)

 

[mbc]

And that happens when bees are in contact with brood

Chicken and egg sort of thing, I think some of the bees will fire up their hypopharyngeal glands up to feed the queen to lay the eggs which get the others going.

 

[REDWOOD]

Any use?

From http://jeb.biologists.org/content/212/23/i.2.full

... colonies that had not experienced brood or pheromone had survived best, while the hives that had been provided with both brood and pheromone had the worst survival rates. It was the smell of brood — brood pheromone — that regulated the bees' vitellogenin levels and longevity.​

Maybe this means that colonies that were brooding around Christmas will have the poorest survival rates this year, although you can't discount varroa loads (more about that here)

Thanks, very interesting, I have been reading this you might like
http://honeybee.drawwing.org/book/hypopharyngeal-glands

 

[beeno]

Hi Beeno

I wouldn't qualify as "life long" but I have overwintered bees for over 15 years.

Up til now, I've never needed to know how long winter bees last as Spring has always arrived at a sensible time.
I'm not sure that "knowing" would really help anyway. Not a lot I can do to influence this that I don't already do. All I can do is ensure my bees are healthy as possible all year round, ensure they have stores and provide a pollen and sugar source when required if the weather is as it is at the moment.
Cazza

Hi Cazza,
Yes, you qualify with 15 years experience. Knowing anything gives a person choices. I would prefer my bees to collect their own pollen if possible as this is nutritionally better for long term colony survival. The bees know best argument.

 

[isc26]

Some would suggest that it's not a matter of time but a matter of distance. The idea goes in winter bees fly far less and live longer (6ish months) In summer busy flying (6ish weeks). So with a long cold spell the lack of activity might extend lifespan.

 

[Finman]

Some would suggest that it's not a matter of time but a matter of distance. .

It is very well reseached what is wintering honeybee.

Those bees, which do not feed larvae, they will form a winter cluster.
Those who feeds last larvae, will die before winter.

Wintering bee eates lots of pollen to make his "fatbody" full of reserve nutritients.
The better protein content is in a bee, the better it stands the winter and winter diseases.

During winter a bee becomes slimmer and it may loose 60% of his body protein.
After winter bees are in bad condition. Wintered bees die quite quickly when they start to forage in spring.

.

 

[beeno]

Hi all,
Thanks for all the replies and particularly BeeJoyful for finding the article which sums it up for me! Job done.

 

[Dishmop]

If you buy them in a package they should have a Best Before date on them..

 

[Easy Beesy]

Beeno Having read the article and all the opinions, can you now answer the question you posed in first post?

Or do you now agree that "approx 6 months" was correct?