Starved Buckfast colony

[madasafish]

Not directed at you at all, Mad. and no offense but the parenthetical comment hit me with what another yankee said: "Never argue with stupid people; they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with [ their personal] experience!"
--Mark Twain

Well I assume you have no thing to argue with. There are studies showing you are wrong.
https://www.beeculture.com/thermal-...oVslzkJ8ZPkCPQgNjKtvLZzfI19G6o5fLYAujXZtrMzzw
and
http://www.eigentek.com/11-08-2015-IJBM_flat_mailable .pdf

No doubt you have a study to prove them all wrong.

 

[philkhor]

Buckfasts are a variable animal of course, being hybrids of different races according to the breeder’s preference. Buckies with Italian in them will keep laying all through the winter and be in mortal danger of starving as early as February.
Cracking open the crown board? Every time you do that you increase the colony’s consumption rate of stores by 300% since they have to get the nest temperature up again.
it’s not difficult to learn the art of hefting especially if all your hives are made of the same material and you heft on a regular basis. Better still invest in a glass quilt or modern polycarbonate equivalent. You can take the roof off and peer in without letting out any appreciable amount of warm air.

 

[user 20297]

Point of order Mr Speaker.
I never said that. My assertion is that active bees consume more that clustered bees. I make no claim for insulated hives either way.

I will accept the Honorable Member's point of order and therefore make a full apology.

My experience was that the insulated hive maybe made the bees more active and less clustered; consequently they consumed more stores.

 

[Curly green finger's]

Beebee the best advice is roll with the punches and be adaptable. Bees vary greatly as do the seasons and weather. Look at posts on the site saying it’s x month what do I do. It’s like how longs a piece of string weather colonies strength and location all play a part. All colonies are different it’s a case of judgment. As for Buckfasts they can produce big colonies I have some with the queen laying in multiple bb but May winter in a single. I also last weekend removed stores from some buckfasts in poly Nucs to give laying space they’ve wintered well with minimal stores consumption, and that’s common for me this time of year. As to hefting it’s a great way for me to judge stores, and yes if there really short I’ll look in. Hefting just gives an indication it’s more often than not all that’s required. Start at the end of the season you’ll soon no what’s a heavy hive. A friend who ran beginner courses many years before they became trendy would place an empty hive along side 1 filled with bricks, great for giving people an idea. If you’ve got late sources like ivy brood rearing can continue right into December and in good ivy years it does in my area. It’s a real bonus in terms of bees condition. But keep an eye on stores. They may be bringing in pollen but little else late on. For those that pack up early it’s easy to find them running short. Ian

I agree you can't pigeon hole a strain of bee, ivy flow was really good last year less feeding but bigger colonys for winter and some nucs are 4/5 frames of solid brood not really a Amm trait but years differ for all strains. I'm now feeding more.

 

[Ian123]

I agree you can't pigeon hole a strain of bee, ivy flow was really good last year less feeding but bigger colonys for winter and some nucs are 4/5 frames of solid brood not really a Amm trait but years differ for all strains. I'm now feeding more.

Exactly my point for me the last couple of years the ivy has not been great, the previous 4 had been fantastic. In my area many sites are in striking distance of both heather and ivy there’s a large difference particularly in Nucs of those colonies that benefit from both!

 

[gmonag]

I will accept the Honorable Member's point of order and therefore make a full apology.

My experience was that the insulated hive maybe made the bees more active and less clustered; consequently they consumed more stores.

To be fair, that is the assumption that several made during the debate, but not me.

 

[F.F.Stung]

Being a bit of a smartarse, (what do you expect? I'm a beekeeper!) I've been quite selective in the range of accepted beekeeping practises I have adopted. This has resulted in the demise of my colony of Buckfast.
They went into winter with an eleven-frame, BS deep with a matching shallow of honey stores above. There was a bit of brood on a couple of those shallow frames at the last time I checked inside, which was late September/early October. I have been hefting them quite frequently but I think I've been deceived by inexperience as the hive has felt heavy throughout winter; now dismantled, it feels very light.

I had since decided that feeding was not one of my gambits (mind now changed @Earthboy ), but at that time the colony did get the benefit of lots of sugar syrup. This was from a late June nuc, so I didn't take off any honey. Our ivy crop is ridiculously late, so I suspect they also missed out on that. I mentioned on here a couple of weeks ago that the Buckfast had been trying to get into a neighbouring hive; I now realise that was because they were starving.

A couple of days ago I had a pile of dead bees in front, showing symptoms reminiscent of CBPV and my suspicions were increased when I had a quick peep into the top and could see bees with shivering wings. By this morning they were dead. Between the lot of you, if I'd listened properly, you could have saved me from this. But the problem is that I put together the jigsaw of advice and experience in a way that looked right from the back, but turned over.....the picture didn't! There was zero brood, pollen or honey...this had been declining for ages.

Conclusions:

1. Buckfast are very hungry and although I feel the loss, now I will stick to my "locals" and caught swarms.
2. Maybe it's not so smart to let bees build up as much as I did by going excluderless with double brood or brood and a half; in future it will be one deep with a QE.
3. The worry I have about having sugar in next season's honey is probably over-concern....there'll certainly be no sugar in it now!
4. If they can starve, even without removing honey stores, they obviously benefit from being stuffed with sugar in the Autumn and maybe during winter.
5. My bees are very insulated; going back to a thread the other day, I think it was @gmonag who said he believed insulated bees consumed more stores...that seems to be the right assumption. I think the bees carried on multiplying until very late in the season and consumed a lot of their stores.
6. I'm staying positive, using some dirty old frames which came with the original nuc as the basis for bait hives. I also now have some drawn frames for nucs and honey supers.

If you've read this far you'll see that I have learned something from this disaster so I would appreciate not being beaten up. But any addditional observations or advice are welcome.

Being a bit of a smartarse, (what do you expect? I'm a beekeeper!) I've been quite selective in the range of accepted beekeeping practises I have adopted. This has resulted in the demise of my colony of Buckfast.
They went into winter with an eleven-frame, BS deep with a matching shallow of honey stores above. There was a bit of brood on a couple of those shallow frames at the last time I checked inside, which was late September/early October. I have been hefting them quite frequently but I think I've been deceived by inexperience as the hive has felt heavy throughout winter; now dismantled, it feels very light.

I had since decided that feeding was not one of my gambits (mind now changed @Earthboy ), but at that time the colony did get the benefit of lots of sugar syrup. This was from a late June nuc, so I didn't take off any honey. Our ivy crop is ridiculously late, so I suspect they also missed out on that. I mentioned on here a couple of weeks ago that the Buckfast had been trying to get into a neighbouring hive; I now realise that was because they were starving.

A couple of days ago I had a pile of dead bees in front, showing symptoms reminiscent of CBPV and my suspicions were increased when I had a quick peep into the top and could see bees with shivering wings. By this morning they were dead. Between the lot of you, if I'd listened properly, you could have saved me from this. But the problem is that I put together the jigsaw of advice and experience in a way that looked right from the back, but turned over.....the picture didn't! There was zero brood, pollen or honey...this had been declining for ages.

Conclusions:

1. Buckfast are very hungry and although I feel the loss, now I will stick to my "locals" and caught swarms.
2. Maybe it's not so smart to let bees build up as much as I did by going excluderless with double brood or brood and a half; in future it will be one deep with a QE.
3. The worry I have about having sugar in next season's honey is probably over-concern....there'll certainly be no sugar in it now!
4. If they can starve, even without removing honey stores, they obviously benefit from being stuffed with sugar in the Autumn and maybe during winter.
5. My bees are very insulated; going back to a thread the other day, I think it was @gmonag who said he believed insulated bees consumed more stores...that seems to be the right assumption. I think the bees carried on multiplying until very late in the season and consumed a lot of their stores.
6. I'm staying positive, using some dirty old frames which came with the original nuc as the basis for bait hives. I also now have some drawn frames for nucs and honey supers.

If you've read this far you'll see that I have learned something from this disaster so I would appreciate not being beaten up. But any addditional observations or advice are welcome.

People who think they know it all are especially annoying to those of us that do

 

[F.F.Stung]

Being a bit of a smartarse, (what do you expect? I'm a beekeeper!) I've been quite selective in the range of accepted beekeeping practises I have adopted. This has resulted in the demise of my colony of Buckfast.
They went into winter with an eleven-frame, BS deep with a matching shallow of honey stores above. There was a bit of brood on a couple of those shallow frames at the last time I checked inside, which was late September/early October. I have been hefting them quite frequently but I think I've been deceived by inexperience as the hive has felt heavy throughout winter; now dismantled, it feels very light.

I had since decided that feeding was not one of my gambits (mind now changed @Earthboy ), but at that time the colony did get the benefit of lots of sugar syrup. This was from a late June nuc, so I didn't take off any honey. Our ivy crop is ridiculously late, so I suspect they also missed out on that. I mentioned on here a couple of weeks ago that the Buckfast had been trying to get into a neighbouring hive; I now realise that was because they were starving.

A couple of days ago I had a pile of dead bees in front, showing symptoms reminiscent of CBPV and my suspicions were increased when I had a quick peep into the top and could see bees with shivering wings. By this morning they were dead. Between the lot of you, if I'd listened properly, you could have saved me from this. But the problem is that I put together the jigsaw of advice and experience in a way that looked right from the back, but turned over.....the picture didn't! There was zero brood, pollen or honey...this had been declining for ages.

Conclusions:

1. Buckfast are very hungry and although I feel the loss, now I will stick to my "locals" and caught swarms.
2. Maybe it's not so smart to let bees build up as much as I did by going excluderless with double brood or brood and a half; in future it will be one deep with a QE.
3. The worry I have about having sugar in next season's honey is probably over-concern....there'll certainly be no sugar in it now!
4. If they can starve, even without removing honey stores, they obviously benefit from being stuffed with sugar in the Autumn and maybe during winter.
5. My bees are very insulated; going back to a thread the other day, I think it was @gmonag who said he believed insulated bees consumed more stores...that seems to be the right assumption. I think the bees carried on multiplying until very late in the season and consumed a lot of their stores.
6. I'm staying positive, using some dirty old frames which came with the original nuc as the basis for bait hives. I also now have some drawn frames for nucs and honey supers.

If you've read this far you'll see that I have learned something from this disaster so I would appreciate not being beaten up. But any addditional observations or advice are welcome.

I can feel for your loss. I lost a hive which I felt was going into winter with plenty of stores, but I didn't realise there were even more bees. I like this quote:
People who think they know it all are especially annoying to those of us that do

 

[Earthboy]

Beebee the best advice is roll with the punches and be adaptable. Bees vary greatly as do the seasons and weather. Look at posts on the site saying it’s x month what do I do. It’s like how longs a piece of string weather colonies strength and location all play a part. All colonies are different it’s a case of judgment. As for Buckfasts they can produce big colonies I have some with the queen laying in multiple bb but May winter in a single. I also last weekend removed stores from some buckfasts in poly Nucs to give laying space they’ve wintered well with minimal stores consumption, and that’s common for me this time of year. As to hefting it’s a great way for me to judge stores, and yes if there really short I’ll look in. Hefting just gives an indication it’s more often than not all that’s required. Start at the end of the season you’ll soon no what’s a heavy hive. A friend who ran beginner courses many years before they became trendy would place an empty hive along side 1 filled with bricks, great for giving people an idea. If you’ve got late sources like ivy brood rearing can continue right into December and in good ivy years it does in my area. It’s a real bonus in terms of bees condition. But keep an eye on stores. They may be bringing in pollen but little else late on. For those that pack up early it’s easy to find them running short. Ian

On that note, allow me to officially and for the record to say that:

All beekeeping is local and all beekeepers are loco.

 

[Earthboy]

A

To be fair, that is the assumption that several made during the debate, but not me.

Allow me to stand corrected, tarred and feathered.

>Little side story: An abandoned colony survived this past winter in Fairbanks Alaska (slightly warmer than Dawson City), with minimal prep, in a wooden hive with a large top entrance and vented top. The beekeeper was extremely surprised to get a burst of bees when they decided to clean it out in the spring. They found a vole had died at the lower entrance which then got plugged by it and many dead bees. The hive was likely buried in snow for most of the winter. This hive had consumed minimal honey and ended up doing great this summer. I contribute its survival to that vole plugging off the lower entrance early in the season and the abundance of snow during a very cold winter. (Bee-L Archive)

 

[coffindodger]

The colony needs a large number of bees to make a good cluster. The number of brood cells is only part of the story. A problem often seen is that, although there is a good supply of food either as sugar or stores, the bees do not get to it. Sometimes you'll see dead bees tucked into cells trying to get the last bit of food when only a few cells away there is a plentiful supply. Double brood is fine for all the year gives space for bees and stores.

 

[user 20297]

People who think they know it all are especially annoying to those of us that do

I already know that.

 

[user 20297]

Sometimes you'll see dead bees tucked into cells trying to get the last bit of food when only a few cells away there is a plentiful supply.

..unfortunately for my bees, (on brood and a half), was that the plentiful supply was in the next hive along.

 

[BugsInABox]

stores by 300% since they have to get the nest temperature

Sounds frightening but 300% for how long. Second, minutes, hours, weeks or months?

 

[Curly green finger's]

I can feel for your loss. I lost a hive which I felt was going into winter with plenty of stores, but I didn't realise there were even more bees. I like this quote:
People who think they know it all are especially annoying to those of us that do

Same here really I've lost two this winter for the first time so it's a learning curve it will make you a better beek in the end.
I always got taught.
" people who think they know everything know f all"

 

[CaptainCymru]

Sorry for your loss . Feel free to blow me out of the sky here but would it just Make life simple to top up fondant until say mid April?

 

[Erichalfbee]

Sorry for your loss . Feel free to blow me out of the sky here but would it just Make life simple to top up fondant until say mid April?

Of course especially for beginners but be prepared to remove frames at first inspection

 

[user 20297]

Sorry for your loss . Feel free to blow me out of the sky here but would it just Make life simple to top up fondant until say mid April?

Of course, you're right, but I'd dismissed all that, wishing to avoid sugar in honey and generally assuming I could avoid winter/spring sugar if they were properly prepared in autumn....all that, "bees can easily overwinter in one box as long as it's filled with stores." These bees were obviously filled with bees!

 

[North End Bees]

My experience was that the insulated hive maybe made the bees more active and less clustered; consequently they consumed more stores.

Although it sounds contradictory, the clustered bees do use more energy.

The 'active' bees in the insulated hive are quietly active: sitting, sleeping, taking a wander (all usual bee behaviour when there isn't a job to do).
The clustered bees are very actively vibrating their thoracic muscles to generate warmth.

 

[Murox]

Of course, you're right, but I'd dismissed all that, wishing to avoid sugar in honey and generally assuming I could avoid winter/spring sugar if they were properly prepared in autumn....all that, "bees can easily overwinter in one box as long as it's filled with stores." These bees were obviously filled with bees!

Just too many variables for that to be accurate.