Expected weight of 5 frame Nuc when buying bees

[Elizabeth Richmond-Watson]

Hi I have recently bought 6 nucs of buckfast bees, as I have baby scales I decided to weigh the nucs on arrival. The weights varied enormously, so my question is what is the expected weight of a 5 frame nuc (plastic box) from a queen rearer and is there an industry standard or if they were under weight is that just tough luck. The bees were ordered early in the year but not ready till 3rd week of July.

 

[markb2603]

I imagine the variance in weight is likely caused by a variance in stores in each nuc more than the variance in the number of bees. More stores = heavier nuc (assuming all nucs are the same brand etc). To determine the strength of the nuc, you need to visually inspect and see how many frames are covered in bees. The more frames covered, the more Bees. Inspect the nucs for stores, queen and BIAS. If all there then let them be. If one of those is missing, take appropriate action to remedy.

 

[user 23129]

Hello From memory...around 7 kilos is around average, a lighter nuc is not always worse though, as brood weighs less than honey. 4 frames of brood and one of honey/pollen is lighter, but is more beneficial for the buyer as the nuc will expand rapidly.There should be 3 good frames of brood in all stages, though capped is better for retaining heat and less susceptible to cold spells during transport, or after transition to a hive.

Also, late July is, er, well late in the season to have your bees delivered if ordered early in the year: Unless you'd already agreed upon July as the expected arrival date! Small delays can be unavoidable though, most commonly "if" it's a bad spring, no matter how much expertise and good will is involved

As they are late season nucs, and depending on their progress, they may need a little feeding after experiencing such poor weather recently.

Best wishes with your bees

 

[Ian123]

Hi I have recently bought 6 nucs of buckfast bees, as I have baby scales I decided to weigh the nucs on arrival. The weights varied enormously, so my question is what is the expected weight of a 5 frame nuc (plastic box) from a queen rearer and is there an industry standard or if they were under weight is that just tough luck. The bees were ordered early in the year but not ready till 3rd week of July.

Not sure I’ve ever heard of anyone weighing a nuc on arrival before…..
5 frame nucs should have as a minimum 3 frames with bias…and obviously enough stores reasonably covering the remaining frames. Personally I’d prefer extra brood and a lighter nuc if I am the customer, a couple of £ will buy enough sugar for a feed and I’d take the extra bees.
Bees/nucs are never going to be the same no group of any livestock or insect colony will ever be identical.

Simple question when you inspected did they meet the minimal requirements.

 

[Elizabeth Richmond-Watson]

Thanks, sadly one of the nucs failed completely, robbed out so I was able to check its weight. It was the LIGHT one and only had 605g of bees plus the frames and box being 1.98 giving the arrival weight of 2.585kg It didnt make it into the hive, been robbed out of the nuc. the other nucs weighed between 4 and 5.8kg and they are doing fine, I have been feeding.
I am trying to work out what to do, I did tell the supplier but he didn't seem interested so I am trying to get facts together.

 

[user 23129]

Thanks, sadly one of the nucs failed completely, robbed out so I was able to check its weight. It was the LIGHT one and only had 605g of bees plus the frames and box being 1.98 giving the arrival weight of 2.585kg It didnt make it into the hive, been robbed out of the nuc. the other nucs weighed between 4 and 5.8kg and they are doing fine, I have been feeding.
I am trying to work out what to do, I did tell the supplier but he didn't seem interested so I am trying to get facts together.

I forgot to press "reply" to your message, just as you did for whomever you replied to, be it myself, or Ian! Regardless, I'm sorry to hear that you've lost one and that the supplier is not communicative, Elizabeth. It's very poor if they won't even discuss the matter, even if they feel that the nucs were of good quality. Quite often, small scale beekeepers with excess bees supply very high quality nucs, providing the queens are of good quality and that they've good knowledge of disease and take precautions regarding varroa. You generally can get a good idea of who is trustworthy and conscientious via their comments here. It's tricky to know if the other nucs were good on arrival just by weight, but 2.5kg seems incredibly light.

 

[ericbeaumont]

I did tell the supplier

It may seem heartless of the supplier to decline to engage with you regarding the lost colony, but the fact is that once bees leave a supplier their future is very much in the hands & skills of the buyer, the vagaries of weather and nature and the ups and downs of managing livestock.

If a supplier engaged with every customer who had a problem not of the supplier's making, you can see that the supplier - who may not have admin staff to take the load - might avoid the issue or may not have the skill to defuse irate disappointment.

When one of our customers had a problem with a nuc the office would ask me to resolve the issue one way or another, and a 20-minute conversation offering advice and solutions would be typical and not always easy.

One year a customer drove from Yorkshire to London to collect an online order (why, indeed) and was given advice ahead of the hot trip to keep the air-con on, fuel & feed before driving home, and to drive without stopping. The conversation we had after he opened them to find both nucs dead was mournful, but I probed for a reason and discovered that they had stopped at a motorway service station for coffee. Of course, the car overheated on the hot tarmac and that was that, and I had to find away to tell him without losing his goodwill.

When did you notice the wasps were ripping into the weak nuc? There are tricks to save such a situation which you may not have known, but that is not the fault of the supplier.

trying to work out what to do

Put it down to experience, build the colonies for winter and if you split next summer you could triple the five you do have.

 

[Ian123]

Thanks, sadly one of the nucs failed completely, robbed out so I was able to check its weight. It was the LIGHT one and only had 605g of bees plus the frames and box being 1.98 giving the arrival weight of 2.585kg It didnt make it into the hive, been robbed out of the nuc. the other nucs weighed between 4 and 5.8kg and they are doing fine, I have been feeding.
I am trying to work out what to do, I did tell the supplier but he didn't seem interested so I am trying to get facts together.

You weighed the nuc after it had been robbed out?
When the nucs arrived and you say you noticed the weight difference did you visually check available stores. You could have fed then IF it was required.
How many days after you transferred the nucs did you inspect again?

We can assume there was at least 3 weeks from arrival till robbing?
Did you inspect in this period?

 

[Elizabeth Richmond-Watson]

Basically yes I put it down to experience BUT this is a guy who produces and sells F1 Buckfast queens so should be selling acceptable quality and a tiny nuc is perhaps not "fit for purpose"
I stressed when I placed the order I wanted in June too. I WILL NOT go there again

 

[Elizabeth Richmond-Watson]

You weighed the nuc after it had been robbed out?
When the nucs arrived and you say you noticed the weight difference did you visually check available stores. You could have fed then IF it was required.
How many days after you transferred the nucs did you inspect again?

We can assume there was at least 3 weeks from arrival till robbing?
Did you inspect in this period?

Yes the weight of frames and box was 1.98kg so bees only 605g.
Robbed within days

 

[SWEET]

Yes the weight of frames and box was 1.98kg so bees only 605g.
Robbed within days

Days? I've tiny Apidea hives fending off wasps no problem, a nucleus should be more than capable of handling wasps (unless super docile bees).

 

[Elizabeth Richmond-Watson]

Days? I've tiny Apidea hives fending off wasps no problem, a nucleus should be more than capable of handling wasps (unless super docile bees).

Thanks, I only have a few wasps around the hives, I don't know if it was wasps or the other bees. The nucs were moved into the brood boxes with the help of my local club president

 

[sipa]

For context, we supply hundreds of nucs each season.
The weight of a nuc is not an indicator of quality, durabilility or survivability. When you strip out the weight of the basic fixed components, ie the box, frames foundation you are then left with the variable components ie the amout of drawn wax, pollen, honey and bees and brood.
For example let's talk about a Bs Standard 5 frame nuc. This has a correx box, frames and wax which would weigh around 2kg, 10,000 bees would weigh around 1.3 kg. this gives you a baseline of around 3.3 kg
So you are now left with the highly variable components of drawn wax, honey and pollen,. this could weigh anywhere between say 2 and 5kg

A good baseline would be somewhere between 5.3kg and 8.3kg for a 5 frame BS Standard nuc in a correx box. That's not to say nucs outside this range would be inferior in any way, far from it.

 

[ericbeaumont]

don't know if it was wasps or the other bees

The plot thickens.

If this situation recurs, you could swap the position of a weak nuc with that of the strongest, provided a flow is in progress (if not, fighting will be tremendous). The extra older flyers will defend a small nuc better than young bees.

Easiest option: close the box at night and park it 3 miles away for a month. Check regularly.

 

[Elizabeth Richmond-Watson]

For context, we supply hundreds of nucs each season.
The weight of a nuc is not an indicator of quality, durabilility or survivability. When you strip out the weight of the basic fixed components, ie the box, frames foundation you are then left with the variable components ie the amout of drawn wax, pollen, honey and bees and brood.
For example let's talk about a Bs Standard 5 frame nuc. This has a correx box, frames and wax which would weigh around 2kg, 10,000 bees would weigh around 1.3 kg. this gives you a baseline of around 3.3 kg
So you are now left with the highly variable components of drawn wax, honey and pollen,. this could weigh anywhere between say 2 and 5kg

A good baseline would be somewhere between 5.3kg and 8.3kg for a 5 frame BS Standard nuc in a correx box. That's not to say nucs outside this range would be inferior in any way, far from it.

Thanks, 2.58 kg being the arrival weight of the lost nuc is still well short of your 3.3kg and indeed your 3.3 has twice as many bees. On your calculations it looks like I had a delivery of 5,000 bees.
The next lightest nuc was 4kg and that one is doing fine

 

[ericbeaumont]

The next lightest nuc was 4kg and that one is doing fine

Weight is not really an indicator of success and may mean that the box held more stores but perhaps fewer bees.

 

[Elizabeth Richmond-Watson]

Weight is not really an indicator of success and may mean that the box held more stores but perhaps fewer bees.

Thanks, I get that but i'm trying to ascertain if there is an acceptable minimum quantity of bees when a buyer pays a commercial seller for a nuc of bees, or is it that there is a nuc box, 5 frames, a queen and a small number of bees. I am ignoring wax, stores etc because I know this nuc being 2.58kg on arrival and just under 2kg with bees gone
My question is purely based on is this acceptable trading practise

 

[sipa]

Although no serious seller of nucs wants an unhappy customer, sometimes we find that a customer will try to find fault with whatever has been supplied rather than accepting it's their ineptitude that has led to the demise of a recently purchased colony.
In all the times we have been supplying bees, and that's along time and many thousands of colonies, we have only ever replaced one nuc.
I would reiterate that my comments previously would represent our own assesment of nuc weights, it's not an industry standard and it's only a guide to try to answer your question.

I'm also puzzeld by your comment on being able to weigh your nuc once the bees had gone (been robbed out) that would bear no relation at all to the original number of bees in the nuc. I would respectfully suggest that the supplier bears no responsibilty in these circumstances.

 

[Ian123]

My question is purely based on is this acceptable trading practise

Whilst there are guidelines for what a nuc should contain, I’ve never seen mention of any weight! Whilst there are guidelines they are only that. What was the set up of this nuc frames of bias/stores?
Did your president put an entrance block/reducer in?
I asked earlier what the inspections or transfer revealed?
Did your president comment on a lack of bees at the time of transfer?
Did you buy or pay full price from a recognised supplier who would/should follow the guidelines or knock down price from a side liner?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Did your president put an entrance block/reducer in?
I asked earlier what the inspections or transfer revealed?
Did your president comment on a lack of bees at the time of transfer?

And if the nuc was that weak when you got it, why did your president still put them into a cavernous full size hive? especially at this time of year it's an invitation for robbers