Encouraging bees to take honey from supers into brood box

[Erichalfbee]

We had a geography teacher Mr Thonas (Crank) who taught in the lecture theatre - it had one of those rolling cnvas blackboards with a beading at intervals so you could move the board around to the next 'page'. If he caught you misbehaving, he'd call you to the front, draw a small circle on the board and make you push your nose against the board within the circle, then as he was lecturing you, he'd grap the handle and quickly 'flip' the board up to the next page, catching your nose on the way

Good grief! What inventiveness.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Good grief! What inventiveness.

And my grandfather's cousin Kendrick (finger on the word) Lewis would get misbehaving boys in his French class to stand on a chair then command him to jump off it whilst firmly gripping a tuft of hair from his temple.
But we won't mention Mr George (History) who would get the girls to stand on the desk to open the top vents in the windows on a hot day. Clumsy man - he was forever dropping his pencils on the floor.

 

[Erichalfbee]

I’m surprised some of us survived. There were certainly some deviants around but they were in open view and if you kept your head down you could avoid them. No laughing matter really

 

[Finman]

My grandfather has died 90 years ago. I have nothing to say about him.

 

[oliver90owner]

Thanks everyone. Think I opened a can of worms there! Fascinating discussion though and I’ve learned a lot.

So, based on all of the above, if you were me now would you -

A - risk putting the drone comb supers on without QE for the winter
B - feed the super honey to them via an eke and small hole in a crown board
C - throw away the honey and feed them sugar syrup instead
D - something else entirely

finman - this isn’t about saving money, it’s about not wasting the honey that’s been collected by putting it to good use - and also saving time and effort buying and making up syrup if it’s not needed - trying to kill 2 birds with one stone.

look forward to your voting!

I found a good way of feeding back part-filled shallow frames was to place them, well spaced out (only 5 or 6 frames in a box) in a shallow or deep box below the brood box - as long as there was no risk of wasp attack. Separated frames were moved up quite quickly compared to a full box, when the queen might move down instead.

Queens do not totally lay above the stores frames - the bottom of the nest will still be almost the lowest point.

If done fairly late in the season, the emptied frames could be left over the winter without fear of wax moth infestation. This was on OMFs.

 

[Moobee]

The queen won't be laying in the winter much and yes the idea is that she should have unrestricted access to the brood and the super ... it's fine and not a problem. The queen will move with the cluster which will move to the warmest part of the hive (ie - the top) and if you left a QE in there the cluster may leave her trapped with a few bees below the QE or worse still stay with her and starve with stores above them. If she lays a bit in the super it's not a problem ... I run without queen excluders all the time and it's fine.

I have been running brood and a half with a strong colony and last year nadired the super for winter (which they had filled with stores by the end of the season) on advice from local BKA (don’t judge me….!). I assume the theory is that with OMFs it keeps them warmer. The rational of leaving it where it is makes good sense, so should the varroa floor be left in?

 

[Jonnyl]

People will quote the old stories about it takes a load of honey to build comb and if you provide foundation they will use less of it .... load of codswallop in my experience. I've been foundation free since Day 1 of my beekeeping. They draw comb out beautifully without foundation - they need a guide to keep the drawing in line with the frames - so start with foundation free frames checkerboarded with drawn frames and you won't go far wrong. There's lots of ways you can start them off .. I pin a triangle of timber under the top bar with the point facing down - I 'paint' the strip with melted beeswax and off they go. But - you can just run a bead of wax under the top bar. put an inch of foundation in place instead of a full sheet ... you can even make your own starter strip by melting some beeswax onto a piece of polythene and cutting it into strips when it has set - they really don't need the guidance of cells imprinted on the wax.

Try it ... it costs you nothing - you will see the beautiful way they draw out the comb and the real beauty is that it's what they want to build ...

https://www.flickr.com/photos/99514363@N06/albums/72157636257703495

I've been using foundationless for the last two years and echo the above. I don't even use starter strips or wax the top bar but as I'm on 14x12 I do use two skewers to divide brood frames into three sections. They build it perfectly every time although you must be a little gentle with the comb for the first brood cycle or two then it's as strong as any. I find they also build a section of drone and two of worker cells, or variations depending on what they want, on the same frame. I use Manleys in the supers (with no skewers) with the same result, perfect comb every time and it spins out just fine or makes excellent cut comb. I did use foundation originally to checkerboard until I had enough drawn comb but going forward I'll not be using foundation again. The only thing I've noticed which is a little odd is that they don't tend to completely attach the sections in the brood comb, they like to leave gaps especially at the bottoms of the frames but it causes no issues at all.

 

[elainemary]

This useless moonscape is what I got when I, unthinkingly, put a sheet of drone foundation into four brood boxes after the longest day had already passed. One hive drew drone cells, the other three tried to make worker cells, but couldn't, as you can see, and gave up. Experiment rapidly abandoned and lesson learned.

View attachment 27595

More lunar landscapes found today. Another lesson learnt!

 

[Markthebuilder]

I've been using foundationless for the last two years and echo the above. I don't even use starter strips or wax the top bar but as I'm on 14x12 I do use two skewers to divide brood frames into three sections. They build it perfectly every time although you must be a little gentle with the comb for the first brood cycle or two then it's as strong as any. I find they also build a section of drone and two of worker cells, or variations depending on what they want, on the same frame. I use Manleys in the supers (with no skewers) with the same result, perfect comb every time and it spins out just fine or makes excellent cut comb. I did use foundation originally to checkerboard until I had enough drawn comb but going forward I'll not be using foundation again. The only thing I've noticed which is a little odd is that they don't tend to completely attach the sections in the brood comb, they like to leave gaps especially at the bottoms of the frames but it causes no issues at all.

I’m on 14x12 and have a number of frames with standard Nat brood foundation … to date bees have always built drone in the bottom foundationless section.

 

[Jonnyl]

I’m on 14x12 and have a number of frames with standard Nat brood foundation … to date bees have always built drone in the bottom foundationless section.

They will do that rather than build drone brood on worker foundation. The same happens if you place a standard frame in a 14x12. Theyll build extra comb on the bottom of the standard and worker on the foundation within the confines of the frame. With foundationless they decide where they want each type of cell. If it makes them happy.....

 

[Murox]

They will do that rather than build drone brood on worker foundation. The same happens if you place a standard frame in a 14x12. Theyll build extra comb on the bottom of the standard and worker on the foundation within the confines of the frame. With foundationless they decide where they want each type of cell. If it makes them happy.....

Yes it can be surprising just how much drone brood/comb gets produced. They seem to "like having drones around"

 

[Jonnyl]

Yes it can be surprising just how much drone brood/comb gets produced. They seem to "like having drones around"

I've certainly found that Murox. It would be simplicity itself to cull it to combat varroa but I'm inclined to let them do as they please. I'm not at all sure that's wise but it doesn't seem to have any adverse effects. Though of course I've only been keeping for 3-4 years and have nothing in the way of science whatsoever to back that up. So long as they're happy is my only maxim.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

It would be simplicity itself to cull it to combat varroa.

But pretty pointless as it has little effect on varroa numbers and starves the colony of drones, upsetting what they need as a perfect balance of drone numbers.

 

[Jonnyl]

But pretty pointless as it has little effect on varroa numbers and starves the colony of drones, upsetting what they need as a perfect balance of drone numbers.

Like most of us JBM I've read quite a bit about it and views are divided. For me it seems the natural thing to do. Let the bees decide what happens in their world. Hopefully they are better judges of their environment than we are of ours.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Like most of us JBM I've read quite a bit about it and views are divided.

Views might be divided, but the facts are drone culling has little effect on mite numbers

 

[Jonnyl]

Views might be divided, but the facts are drone culling has little effect on mite numbers

I'm glad my instincts are right. Now just the other myriad of issues to solve. Hard work this beekeeping JBM. No one explained how complex when I started the adventure.

 

[Murox]

Work expands to fill the time available ~ I wonder, does a similar principle exists for beekeeping ideas and suppositions ?