Dummy Boards

[Swarm]

Rewind.
A dummy board should be a neater way of using 11 frames in the BB.
Not an alternative to jamming in 12.

If you think you need 12 frames, then go a different way - 14x12 is a good way. Others would prefer brood and a half or double brood. I don't, but respect some of the reasons people have for choosing multi-brood.




Dummy boards themselves.
They really should present a completely flat face towards the end frame.
Using an ordinary frame with a board nailed on just doesn't make a flat face.

Why flat?
Because you'd benefit from the comb having the same beespace whether it is against the dummy or the end wall. Having a *flat* dummy board allows you to inspect by removing the dummy, moving the frames up as they are inspected, and finishing by replacing the dummy at the opposite end of the rails from where it started. To do this effectively, the dummy board must be just as flat as the hive end wall - at least on the side turned towards the comb.

There, I feel better now.

Sorry, I don't get this. If 12 BS deep frames are jammed in, 14x12 are also going to be jammed in, except they will probably be even more difficult because the of the longer sidebar spacers.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Sorry, I don't get this. If 12 BS deep frames are jammed in, 14x12 are also going to be jammed in, except they will probably be even more difficult because the of the longer sidebar spacers.

I think what itma is trying to say is - if you think you need 12 frames in a standard National for the extra brood space, then you are better off having a 14x12 setup with 11 frames and a dummy board

 

[Easy Beesy]

How I wish the UK just used Langstroff as standard. Why do we have to be so awkward?

So why not just use them instead of nationals? Or do you use nats for nucs and langs for honey?

 

[Hivemaker.]

Just had a bit of a tidy up by deleting nine posts in this thread, looks much better now.

 

[dickbowyer]

I use single brood national (Hoffman frames) eleven frames and a dummy board - works fine for me

Ditto

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Just had a bit of a tidy up by deleting nine posts in this thread, looks much better now.

Knew I shouldn't have gone out for a pint, looks like I missed all the fun - again!

 

[itma]

It's obviously all down to personal preference. For me the bigger the frame the less frames you have to lift out if looking for queen cells etc.. You can dummy down a big box to any size using an insulated dummy.

Dadant blatt.
{photo}

Absolutely with you on the spirit of what you say - but - there is a real (as well as semantic) distinction to be drawn between a tight-fitting divider board (to reduce the effective size of the box - as illustrated) and a dummy board which has the same beespace around its sides as an ordinary frame - and which is at least as easily (re)moved as any other frame. .



/There's something that I left out of my earlier ra... errr post on the requirement for flatness.
A dummy board also has to be thinner than an ordinary frame. Otherwise 11+dummy would be at least as tight a fit as 12 ordinary frames!
So dummy boards simply can't have ordinary hoffman sidebars - but I have seen a few that tried.

 

[blackcavebees]

/There's something that I left out of my earlier ra... errr post on the requirement for flatness.
A dummy board also has to be thinner than an ordinary frame. Otherwise 11+dummy would be at least as tight a fit as 12 ordinary frames!
So dummy boards simply can't have ordinary hoffman sidebars - but I have seen a few that tried.

Rightly or wrongly, I make mine from hoffman brood frames to maintain the beespace on the 11th frame, however, I trim the sidebars on the table saw removing approx 5mm from the other side (that goes to the hive wall) and where the foundation goes I cut a piece of estate agent for sale sign cut a little long to close bottom bee space. Means if used on a colony not up to strength a bit of kingspan can be placed behind it. (The mystery of the local missing for sale boards has now been solved )

 

[MuswellMetro]

How I wish the UK just used Langstroff as standard. Why do we have to be so awkward?

I said exactly the same at our beginners lecture tonight, and that the long lugs we use are only becasue they could not agree selfspacer frames and had to go to log lugs to cope with metal spacers

 

[itma]

Rightly or wrongly...
... where the foundation goes I cut a piece of estate agent for sale sign...

This will get you a hollow frame, and the bees are likely to build out the comb from the end frame into the hollow.
I tried to explain the rationale for a flat (faced) dummy board back in post 19 on this thread.
However, if you can explain why your *shape* of dummy board is better than the shape of those offered by all the major commercial suppliers, I'd be interested to learn the advantages - because I can't see them. (Yet! )

 

[MuswellMetro]

Rightly or wrongly, I make mine from hoffman brood frames to maintain the beespace on the 11th frame, however, I trim the sidebars on the table saw removing approx 5mm from the other side (that goes to the hive wall) and where the foundation goes I cut a piece of estate agent for sale sign cut a little long to close bottom bee space. Means if used on a colony not up to strength a bit of kingspan can be placed behind it. (The mystery of the local missing for sale boards has now been solved )

there is a lots of worried beginner beekeepers who use hoffmans and then add ad standard flat dummy then see wide gap,,,it does not say that in the book..aHHHHHHHH

but the old books are written when 36.5m was the standard spacer and 11x36.5 plus dummy filled the box

i have some clean bees that i could easliy get 12 frames in and proplising bees that 11 35mm hoffman plus a thin dummy after a 3 months is a fight to get the dummy in due to wax and propolis on the hoffmans frames

 

[blackcavebees]

This will get you a hollow frame, and the bees are likely to build out the comb from the end frame into the hollow.
I tried to explain the rationale for a flat (faced) dummy board back in post 19 on this thread.
However, if you can explain why your *shape* of dummy board is better than the shape of those offered by all the major commercial suppliers, I'd be interested to learn the advantages - because I can't see them. (Yet! )

Haven't had that problem, YET, but never say never ...

My rationale is that a DN4/5 up against a flat surface doesn't give a full beespace, whereas a DN4/5 up against my DN4 adapted dummy does. I've only used these for one season so time will tell but no problems so far. I only used cut down DN4s as I had a few laying about and it saved me making up from scratch, but point was just to add half a hoffman spacing before the dummy face.

 

[Bates]

So why not just use them instead of nationals? Or do you use nats for nucs and langs for honey?

I would if the wider market was there for them as I supply nucs. Also I don't want to be messing with different equipment, keep it all the same and standardised makes running everything far easier with a high number of colonies.

 

[Into the lions den]

Some beekeepers still persist in cramming 12 frames into a national brood box and then wonder why they have problems removing the end comb at each inspection rolling and upsetting their bees( some even manage to break the lugs off the end frames). Dummy boards have so many uses that I can't imagine beekeeping without them.

lol...there you go...............We do not have even one dummy board anywhere, and on the occasions when we buy a unit that has them they are the first thing on the fire and get an extra frame in there.

Broken lugs have more to do with UK frame design being very poor than anything much else. Too many points of weakness.

OK we do not use nationals and avoid them like the plague, for reasons much explained before, and are all Langstroth or Smith..................but the extra frame gives a bit more brood space and does seem to delay the onset of swarming by a couple of days, which can be a crucial factor in times of tight schedules.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

My rationale is that a DN4/5 up against a flat surface doesn't give a full beespace,

I was led to believe that the 'beespace' created between two hoffmans allowed two bees to work back to back on the brood,if you check the space on honey supers you will find it's narrower only allowing one bee to work it (no need to keep brood warm on both sides so no need for the extra bees.) thus the end frame only needs the space created by one hoffman - ergo -totally flat dummy board.
If you crammed twelve frames into the brood box you would have the last frame butting up against the flat surface of the brood box and I have seen bees working that side so obviously no lack of space.

 

[itma]

Haven't had that problem, YET, but never say never ...

My rationale is that a DN4/5 up against a flat surface doesn't give a full beespace, whereas a DN4/5 up against my DN4 adapted dummy does. ...

An SN4/5 hoffman, "up against a flat surface" is designed to allow for brood-depth comb and one (not a half) beespace.

Between two facing *brood* combs, the bees leave two beespaces, so nurses can work on both faces of the space at the same time.
That consideration doesn't arise with the outside faces.
What they do with the outside face may even depend on how warm the wall is. New poly users find the outer faces being used more often for brood.



At the opposite end to the dummy, the hoffmans ARE "up against a flat surface" (the end wall of the hive).
For the method-studied inspection (I don't think the technique has a name) where each frame is only handled once, and the dummy board is replaced at the opposite end to where it started, the pre-requisite is to get the bees to develop similarly drawn comb on both the outside faces at opposite ends of the hive.
I don't think they'll do that with your 'hollow' dummy.
/ and the "similarly drawn comb" can be drawn to brood depth, leaving room still for one full beespace.



Part of the disconnect may be in regarding approx 8mm as 'one' beespace. Its actually the double beespace that the bees choose to leave between facing brood combs - to allow nurse bees to work simultaneously on both sides of the space.
Fully drawn stores combs (like in a super) will be drawn out further, to leave just one approx 4mm beespace - as the bees don't need to work both faces simultaneously.


/// cross-posted with JBM, but having typed that lot out, I'll let it stand!

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

An SN4/5 hoffman, "up against a flat surface" is designed to allow for brood-depth comb and one (not a half) beespace.

/// cross-posted with JBM, but having typed that lot out, I'll let it stand!

Lot more comprehensive post than mine which is probably why I won the race! but no abiguity there

 

[blackcavebees]

. That's me told, thanks guys, all part of the learning curve and goes to show just because you're taught something doesn't mean it's right. Follow your logic, thanks

 

[oliver90owner]

and then add ad standard flat dummy then see wide gap,,,it does not say that in the book..

Question, MM, might arise as to: How thick is a dummy? Clearly one doesnt need a really thick dummy to pad out the almost 12th frame in a National.

To be honest I prefer much dividers to dummies and most of my boxes have that 12th frame anyway, even on 14 x 12. I reckon dividers are far more useful than dummies.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

How thick is a dummy?

How many angels can dance on the tip of a needle.
I suppose how thick is all about relativity I suppose to Einstein Alfred Nobel was a bit thick, after all the strongest explosive he invented was dynamite