Dry sugar feed

[Poly Hive]

How about turning it around.

Are bees well known for collecting vinegar and lemongrass?

PH

 

[Beefriendly]

That's about as helpful as a fart in a space suit.
Bees have never made sugar blocks ever....
nor have they ever made fondant which many use.
I'm interested in sugar blocks as an economic measure and perhaps as an emergency measure when snowed in and posty can't do next day delivery.

 

[For want of a better word]

the vinegar will increase the HMF in the block and shorten the life of the bees that consume a little.

https://pubs.rsc.org/en/content/articlelanding/2018/gc/c8gc00435h#!divAbstract

In one of my old beekeeping books it suggests adding cream of tarta which I believe is Sodium Tartrate/ Tartaric acid which is added to the cream of soda drink, which the older members will recall we all loved as teenagers!

My home bred bees seem to be OK for stores

 

[pargyle]

That's about as helpful as a fart in a space suit.
Bees have never made sugar blocks ever....
nor have they ever made fondant which many use.
I'm interested in sugar blocks as an economic measure and perhaps as an emergency measure when snowed in and posty can't do next day delivery.

For once we agree ... I've used fondant in the past when colonies have run into problems with stores in early spring but I've had the occasional issue with fondant slipping down between the top bars and if there is any left it's a beggar to clean up. I rather like the look of those sugar cakes .. not to mention the mean arsed Yorkshireman in me !

 

[Repwoc]

https://pubs.rsc.org/en/content/articlelanding/2018/gc/c8gc00435h#!divAbstract

Thanks for the link. I read the paper - they did find that HMF is produced from fructose dissolved in acetic acid solution. However, the rate of reaction was much slower than with strong mineral acids (H3PO4, H2SO4, HCl & HNO3). Time to max yield @ 140 C for:

Acetic : 243 minutes
H3PO4 : 13 minutes
H2SO4 : 32 minutes
HCl : 22 minutes
HNO3 : 19 minutes

The acetic acid solution was far more concentrated too - 5.7 M vs 0.08 M for H2SO4, ie 71 x more concentrated.

Unfortunately they seem to have omitted to include a control with no acid.

 

[monarda]

Thanks for the link. I read the paper - they did find that HMF is produced from fructose dissolved in acetic acid solution. However, the rate of reaction was much slower than with strong mineral acids (H3PO4, H2SO4, HCl & HNO3). Time to max yield @ 140 C for:

Acetic : 243 minutes
H3PO4 : 13 minutes
H2SO4 : 32 minutes
HCl : 22 minutes
HNO3 : 19 minutes

The acetic acid solution was far more concentrated too - 5.7 M vs 0.08 M for H2SO4, ie 71 x more concentrated.

Unfortunately they seem to have omitted to include a control with no acid.

Please help me out here as all this organic chemistry is beyond me. At the end of the day is it safe for bees, to use vinegar when making sugar blocks or not ?

 

[Repwoc]

Please help me out here as all this organic chemistry is beyond me. At the end of the day is it safe for bees, to use vinegar when making sugar blocks or not ?

I think that the rate of HMF production at ambient temperature and low acetic acid concentration will be very slow so the HMF level will take a long time before it becomes dangerous.

Other than catalysing sucrose inversion to fructose and glucose (which the bees can do themselves anyway) it's hard to see what the vinegar is for. Water would probably make equally good sugar bricks without the worry.

 

[Poly Hive]

If it's not something the bees would normally work then the answer is clearly a no.

Personally, it's not something I would give to them. By the time these "bricks" are made I would think that a slab of fondant would save a great deal of time and hassle. Then I like things simple.

PH

 

[Beefriendly]

If it's not something the bees would normally work then the answer is clearly a no.

Personally, it's not something I would give to them. By the time these "bricks" are made I would think that a slab of fondant would save a great deal of time and hassle. Then I like things simple.

PH

A sugar brick would also save a great lot of money for those of us who are unable to get Bako to deliver at wholesale prices.
Do you not add thymol to any syrup you feed?

 

[Poly Hive]

"thymol" Not normally no but I did this Autumn as an experiment. I get my fondant delivered to the door here. A bit more expensive but as I use it as an insurance policy I don't mind as that extra few pounds and it is a few pounds which is far outweighed by the survival of one colony or nuc as that value equates to a lot of blocks of fondant.

PH

 

[monarda]

I think that the rate of HMF production at ambient temperature and low acetic acid concentration will be very slow so the HMF level will take a long time before it becomes dangerous.

Other than catalysing sucrose inversion to fructose and glucose (which the bees can do themselves anyway) it's hard to see what the vinegar is for. Water would probably make equally good sugar bricks without the worry.

Thanks for info Paul, my rather simplistic logic was that I use cider vinegar myself for the odd thing and have always added it to my chickens drinking water when feeling that they needed a bit of a tonic so was hoping it might prove beneficial to the bees but as I'm unwilling to take any risks , I will give it a miss until someone can prove its value
Dave.

 

[Karsal]

Any thoughts on dry sugar feed over paper? Seen it on you tube and am really tempted to try it on one of my nuc’s this week.

Any past experiences. Do’s dont’s would be great.

I made my own sugar bricks from an American recipe. What a laugh!
You could see a long line of sugar straight out the front of the hive along the ground where they had thrown it.
Stick to fondant.

 

[Poly Hive]

Gentlemen? How about people?

21stC and all that and all that....

PH

 

[madasafish]

I tried suagr cake made with vinegar last year. As per formulae.
Gave it to a 5 frame nuc..

Dies of isolation starvation with the sugar virtually untouched on the top bars - my only wintter loss..

End of trial.. never again.

 

[Erichalfbee]

I have deleted a number of posts, including some of mine.....please note.
Two were prejudicial to an ongoing legal process
The rest seemed to have jumped onto some sort of name calling bandwagon and are nothing to do with the original thread.

 

[pargyle]

I have deleted a number of posts, including some of mine.....please note.
Two were prejudicial to an ongoing legal process
The rest seemed to have jumped onto some sort of name calling bandwagon and are nothing to do with the original thread.

High time some people got an impromptu holiday from the forum then ?

 

[Beefriendly]

If what we suspected about you know whom is correct..I certainly think it is....and admin/moderators you have the means to know for sure/wink/wink... all you have done IMHO by deleting these expose posts is to allow this individual to **** yet another two fingers at the forum in allowing (condoning?) his continual use of multiple personalities/accounts to pursue his own private agenda, which has been ongoing over several years.
Is this what you really want?

 

[Erichalfbee]

Please take any further complaints up with Mark. Any further action is outside my control, save closing this thread.