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eventually some bright spark said....what we need is a gas lighter...

Why on earth (well, not in them 'days') would 'a bright spark' need something else? The only 'continuous' bright spark I encounter is at the end of an electric welding rod (apart from my car) and that is hot enough to melt steel.
 
I have been doing a bit of reading on this.

First of all, I found my Mysterious World book, and a lost bookmark from 1988 (a present from my aunt) which was nice. Maybe I dowsed it. Anyhow, it was Percival Lovell with the canals of Mars. An eminent astronomer, whose telescope guidelines we still use. A certain English chap, EW Maunder showed the canals were an artefact. At no point did he doubt Lovell’s integrity, just that Lovell was mistaken. Maunder was backed up by the Viking/Mariner trips made to Mars.

Sadly it has nothing on dowsing in it. It comes close with a section on standing stones, which has this rather excellent piece “Only one thing can be stated with certainty about structures such as Stonehenge: the people who built them were much more intelligent than may who have written books about them.”

I did find, using Storm’s favourite man, James Randi, another experiment looking at dowsing. It’s here - http://www.skeptics.com.au/publications/articles/australian-skeptics-divining-test/ In that one a test similar, but much more improved, than the one I suggested to above was done. There was a prize of AU$40,000 for correct dowsing. All the entrants claimed very high detection rates, averaging out across gold (claimed 99%), water (claimed 86%), and brass (claimed 87%) to be 92%. That is 92 times out of every 100 tries the dowser would find the right thing. As it turned out, they didn’t. They didn’t get close. Water was at 22%, brass zero, and gold 11%. 22% is too low to be significant – sorry. That’s roughly a one in five chance of being correct.

I know he has not tested every possible dowser, but there really is no need. It’s called sampling. Again, a dowser should be able to prove he can dowse. All of them claimed to be dowsers, and rather good ones at that.

Moreover the author of the page notes – “Only two dowsers said there were natural streams running underground in the area and both agreed these would not interfere with the tests. But — and it’s a very big “but” — they also disagreed with one another about where these streams flowed, and thus also disagreed with all the others who said there were no streams!” which is a tad inconsistent. He then notes, and this is really important (assuming his statement is true, for which I have seen no reference “One thing must be made clear — dowsers on the whole are very honest folk. They believe in what they do. Unfortunately their belief is poorly placed. They CANNOT perform as they think they can. Having a string of successful wells to which one can point, proves nothing. A better test would be to ask the dowser whether he can find a DRY spot within 100 metres of a well he has dowsed. With more than 90% of the world’s land mass above reachable supplies of water, this should be quite difficult.”

I also had a look on the dowsers’ forum. Which did concern me a little, but still. I could find no tests there of dowsing. There may be some, I failed to find any. What concerned me was people dowsing photographs of places to find things or see if it was a picture of a UFO or whatever. You don’t have to be a sceptic to see that is a tad weird. But still, I assume it is for me to prove it is rather weird, rather than the dowser of photographs to prove it actually works. Ho hum.

Finally – two more quotes “By far the most important fact that emerges is this: The participants were all able to show strong reactions when they knew where the sought-after substance was, but failed grandly when they actually underwent a proper test.” And “Though diviners will continue to be hired by believers in such powers, and wells will be dug with great precision on spots located by forked-stick folks, these water supplies will not prove that dowsing works. They will only prove that there is a great deal of water down under the earth, and we do not need <snip> folks wiggling sticks to tell us that.”
 
The area I live in is riddled with mine workings both shallow and down to a depth of 1,000 yards .
Also the geology is such that faults are common place :)
One coal seam (Harley by name ) is (was) mined in Leigh at a thousand yards , the same seam outcrops in Horwich some 4 miles away . Horwich is 600 ft higher asl that leigh ! That's some shift in 4 miles !
I think this would challenge any dowser :)

VM
Ps. these workings contain abandoned equipment such as coal cutters, rolling stock railway tracks etc.
Incidentally they will all by now be flooded .
 
Thank goodness all the fuss has dies down and this thread is confined to history. No more hocus pocus.;)
 
and you went and "bumped" it........ :biggrinjester:
 
I'm just hoping it proves that the intensely annoying Brian Cox is a figment of our imaginations........
 
I'm just hoping it proves that the intensely annoying Brian Cox is a figment of our imaginations........



I find Brian Cox a lot less annoying if you can't see his face - it's the perma-smile that irritates me.
He's quite good on the radio.
 
would like to know how they synchronise the two sites? any form of electromagnetic signal would mean using light speed so the beam would get there before the sync signal. if the clocks are synchronised together then seperated maybe but then you have delays inherent in start and detection.
who knows.

would take 2.44 thousandths of a second for the beam to travel the distance involved.
 
I don't think it means relativity is broken anyway - GPS still seems to work, for example.

But, yes, it's relevant to the thread as the whole point of CERN (and science) is to look at what we think should happen, and if it does not, go away and try and think "why not?" In the first instance the obvious answer is a ghost in the machine. Indeed, yesterday I was reading that CERN has mended 40,000 bugs in its computer code, so this could be a product of something similar.

If we are sure of the results, lots of physicists get very excited and do lots of hard sums.

Amazing, huh?

DRS - from the CERN website:

...The distance between the origin of the neutrino beam and OPERA was measured with an uncertainty of 20 cm over the 730 km travel path. The neutrinos’ time of flight was determined with an accuracy of less than 10 nanoseconds by using sophisticated instruments including advanced GPS systems and atomic clocks. The time response of all elements of the CNGS beam line and of the OPERA detector has also been measured with great precision.

"We have established synchronization between CERN and Gran Sasso that gives us nanosecond accuracy, and we’ve measured the distance between the two sites to 20 centimetres,” said Dario Autiero, the CNRS researcher who will give this afternoon’s seminar. “Although our measurements have low systematic uncertainty and high statistical accuracy, and we place great confidence in our results, we’re looking forward to comparing them with those from other experiments."
 
Amazing, huh?

It truly is. It will be very interesting to see whether this is a true result or just an anomaly. I've got a friend who works at CERN - might tap him up for the inside line.
It also shows (or could be said to show) that you can do an experiment a thousand times and it proves one thing. But the 1001st experiment shows something different despite what the law says.
 
if the clocks are synchronised together then seperated maybe but then you have delays inherent in start and detection.
who knows.


The clocks, if synchronised together will have a difference due to relativity when (presumably one is moved) but that is well known and would be taken into account by the boffins. Start and detection errors would be sorted by measurements taken within a close vicinity of the origin of the neutrino burst. A simple way forward is now to check at other distances to see if the error is constant or distance related. Easy to say, not so easy in practice!

Have to remember, too, the Earth is moving in that time as well (about 0.5m in that time scale at that lattitude?), so 'travel distance' is not quite what may be physically measured between the two points.

Too complicated for me. Let them sort it out

RAB
 

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