Do queens lay in queen cells?

[Beeble]

A queen bee measures a cell before laying in it, this produces a trigger that essentially switches on or off her ability to lay a fertilised or non fertilised egg. So in larger cells she lays drone eggs and in smaller cells she lays female eggs.

How then does she figure out how to lay a female egg in a queen cell? As they seem rather larger than a worker cell. I've found queen cells above the queen excluder so I'm guessing that the workers are placing eggs in queen cells...but many of the books clearly state a will queen lay directly into a queen cell.

Have I got the wrong end of the stick and she'll normally lay fertilised eggs and it's only the specific measurment of the drone cell that triggers laying un-fertilised eggs?

 

[mbc]

She might find the vertical nature of the qc a qlue as to which egg to fire.

 

[For want of a better word]

How does the Jenter system fit in here?

 

[Hivemaker.]

How does the Jenter system fit in here?

Laying in worker cells= fertile eggs.

 

[Beeble]

She might find the vertical nature of the qc a qlue as to which egg to fire.

This was the other line I was thinking along, another set of stimuli to trigger off laying fertile eggs.

It's just not anything I've seen any research into which seems rather odd as everything else to do with bees seems to be delved into at great length

 

[Teemore]

A recent thread on this forum commented that workers will move a fertilised egg into a queen cell.
It was noted that some of the forumers have come across queen cells built above a queen excluder and in which there have been eggs. I am afraid i cannot recall if these were allowed to develop into viable queens.

 

[tonybloke]

yes they were, and very prolific queens they were!!

 

[Hombre]

Has anyone thought that this is more than a bit similar to turkeys voting for Christmas or Thanksgiving Day?

 

[Black Comb]

From what I've read, the queen inspects the size of the cell with her forelegs and then turns around to lay. The default is to lay a fertilised egg but if the cell is "large" then there is a signal of some kind which means that no spermis delivered from the spermatheca and/or the valve fold does not press the egg against the spermathecal duct.
So aside from orientation, the cell will be too large anyway.

 

[Beeble]

From what I've read, the queen inspects the size of the cell with her forelegs and then turns around to lay. The default is to lay a fertilised egg but if the cell is "large" then there is a signal of some kind which means that no spermis delivered from the spermatheca and/or the valve fold does not press the egg against the spermathecal duct.
So aside from orientation, the cell will be too large anyway.

Yes I've read everything I can find on the subject and come up with- Queens probably don't lay in queen cells.
As nearly every book states that the queen lays directly into the queen cell I'm assuming there is something I've missed. Though none of them have a picture!

 

[For want of a better word]

Yes I've read everything I can find on the subject and come up with- Queens probably don't lay in queen cells.
As nearly every book states that the queen lays directly into the queen cell I'm assuming there is something I've missed. Though none of them have a picture!

Serial plagiarism I believe...

 

[Beeble]

Serial plagiarism I believe...

What!?
Do beekeepers really do that

Shocking

 

[For want of a better word]

Originally Posted by icanhopit View Post
Serial plagiarism I believe...

What!?
Do beekeepers really do that

Shocking

Only ones wot writes books does it.... goes all the way back to Socrates...
( and I know the Earth is flat !)

 

[Beeble]

It makes more sense to me that the workers are doing all the egg placing in queen cells, but I'd be happy to be wrong!
I'm not sure how it could be proved either way!

 

[Hivemaker.]

It makes more sense to me that the workers are doing all the egg placing in queen cells,

Break down any cells in a colony just preparing to swarm,cage the queen,and make sure they have eggs....see how many eggs they transfer to queen cups/cells.

 

[Beeble]

Break down any cells in a colony just preparing to swarm,cage the queen,and make sure they have eggs....see how many eggs they transfer to queen cups/cells.

But this would only confirm that the workers move the eggs, doesn't prove whether or not the queen lays in them herself sometimes.

 

[Hivemaker.]

But this would only confirm that the workers move the eggs,

And if no eggs get placed in any cells, what would it confirm.

 

[Midland Beek]

I thought the whole of beekeeping logic was firmly in the 'queens lay in queen cells' camp.

But note that queens are not the only bees to lay eggs in a queenright and healthy colony.

 

[susbees]

Huber "watched" it with Francis Burnens:

"I admit that Mr. de Réaumur does not say any-where that he had seen the queen lay in the royal cell; however he had no doubt of this, and after all my obser-vations I see that he had guessed correctly. It is quite certain that, at certain times of the year, the bees prepare royal cells, that the queens lay in them, and that from these eggs worms hatch which become queens."

"The females do not wait, to lay in them, until they are at full size; we have surprised several depositing the egg, when the cell was only as an acorn cup;"--Francis Huber, New Observations Upon Bees, Letter 4

 

[Beeble]

Huber "watched" it with Francis Burnens:

"I admit that Mr. de Réaumur does not say any-where that he had seen the queen lay in the royal cell; however he had no doubt of this, and after all my obser-vations I see that he had guessed correctly. It is quite certain that, at certain times of the year, the bees prepare royal cells, that the queens lay in them, and that from these eggs worms hatch which become queens."

"The females do not wait, to lay in them, until they are at full size; we have surprised several depositing the egg, when the cell was only as an acorn cup;"--Francis Huber, New Observations Upon Bees, Letter 4

Thank you!

I had assumed that this had been confirmed, surely it's been seen in observation hives too, I simply couldn't find anyting actually stating that it had really been seen and not just been assumed.

It is reasonably simple in a home apiary to confirm that worker bees move eggs into queen cells, but other than observance, a simple experiment to confirm queens laying into queen cells is not so obvious.