Dilemma with Queenless hive

[KPBee]

Evening all.

The current situation;

I have a colony in a National hive which was a May swarm this year. They have increased in numbers well, are healthy and strong however, still have 2 ½ frames to pull out.

I have fed them and treated them for Varroa for the past 2/52 with Ambrosia syrup and BeeVital. I will continue the Varroa treatment and will continue to feed until the end of September to help with their stores and to pull the rest of the frames out for overwintering.

The natural Varroa drop was high with masses of Varroa present following the first treatment so will undertake a further treatment after the third week with 1/52 break prior to second treatment, then treat again in the Winter period with OA.

The Queen has slowed right down with laying but there are still a small amount of eggs, larvae and brood.

The second bit;

Someone has a Queenless hive and wants rid. We looked through it the other day and the colony appears Queenless. My dilemma is as follows;

I take them and do a test frame to establish that the colony is definitely Queenless with a frame of what little brood I have in my own colony and feed.

If they are Queenless unite the two colonies to increase the numbers for the winter and assist the bees to pull out more frames.

Or

Place a frame with eggs from my colony to tempt the bees to produce Queen cells and therefore another Queen to try and make another functioning colony. Would this be too late in the season to attempt and what about mating, would this be a no brainer as a result of no Drones around at this time of year? Can a Virgin Queen wait until Spring to mate if produced now?

Or

I leave well alone and let the Queenless colony die.

The disadvantage with the apparently Queenless colony is that they haven't been treated for Varroa and they apparently rob, however, I believe that careless frames of capped and uncapped honey left on hive roofs right next to one another is the contributory factor to the robbing in this case. Basically, messy working. I don't want to be introducing bad traits either way. They have been reported to be Queenless for 6-8 weeks. Would this encourage laying workers if introduced to the settled colony or only if they continue in their current situation?

I need a few opinions prior to my decision! What do you guys think?

 

[Erichalfbee]

Personally I wouldn't have the queenless hive/bees in my apiary.
The more important thing you should attend to is to treat your bees with a proper varroicide. Hive alive is not the thing to be using especially as you have a high mite drop (how high, by the way?)
Get some Apilife Var on your colony.

 

[KPBee]

Mental amount. I put the tray in to monitor the levels prior to treatment 39 natural drop, 2/52 ago, I had a right panic on!

The occasional mite here and there visible on the bees when on inspections but nothing major. The drop with the Bee vital varroa treatment per day is too large to count, I'd be there all week counting them so haven't bothered but the catch tray is full of varroa so it's clearly doing something.

I've tried Apilife Var in the past and it hasn't worked for me. I even lost a colony from CCD a few years ago using that as it wasn't effective. I've tried it since too and it hasn't made much of an impact.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

The occasional mite here and there visible on the bees when on inspections but nothing major.

If you see mites on the bees then that is something major and IMHO should have been dealt with sooner

The drop with the Bee vital varroa treatment per day is too large to count,

In that case it's about time you stopped fiddling around with snake oil treatments and take some urgent action - it's getting on but start apiguard treatment soonest, apilife var, MAQS or even (and I do hate to say this) apistan strips - otherwise I think you are going to start seeing a serious decline in your colony - as Finman would say - your winter bees are already being violated!

I even lost a colony from CCD a few years ago

Really! what part of the USA do you keep bees?

BTW what's with all the fractions

 

[chrismcd]

Late Varroa build up

I would agree with the comments above.

After treatment with Apiguard last week, most of my hives had small drops of no more than 20 varroa over 6 days. But two of them had drops of well over 200.

I have seen this before, where varroa seems to build up to serious levels just as the bees start to produce the winter bee brood. Then you get a spring dwindle as the winter bees die prematurely.

So, I agree that a proper treatment is very advisable.

Good luck.

 

[KPBee]

Ok, thanks. Apiguard it is then. I've not used it before, I'll get to it, quickly.

Apilife Var just doesn't seem to have worked for me in the past. Maybe the location, possible resistance building up. Would be interesting to see if anyone else has had an issue with Apilife Var down here in the South.

Fractions; lazy perhaps and I prescribe medication regularly so that's probably more the case and CCD due to varroosis in 2011 that didn't appear to be a good year for an increase in Varroa levels for me either.

 

[Hivemaker.]

Apilife Var just doesn't seem to have worked for me in the past.

You have no hope by using Apiguard then.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

We don't have CCD in the UK - it's an American creation.

 

[KPBee]

Ok, I stand corrected. Thank you.

It seems as though it's going to be MAQS or Apistan from the advice. Not heard of MAQS before, what's that then? And which out of the two would be best to use now?

 

[Hivemaker.]

It seems as though it's going to be MAQS or Apistan

Apistan is not likely to be very effective, better to use Apivar.

 

[KPBee]

Ok, great. Apivar it is then.

Will it be ok to start them with this as I've been treating with Bee-Vital varroa sachets for the past two weeks? (I've had good results in the past two weeks with this).

Will 1 treatment of 6 weeks be sufficient with a treatment of OA at the end of December?

 

[Hivemaker.]

Ok, great. Apivar it is then.

You will need to get the Apivar strips from a vet, there are a couple that sell it, one of them is down in Devon.

 

[KPBee]

Where is it? I'll look them up and give them a ring in the morning. I'm near Exeter so not far from your location.

 

[Hivemaker.]

Where is it? I'll look them up and give them a ring in the morning. I'm near Exeter so not far from your location.

The bee vet.

Amitraz strips.
http://www.bee-vet.co.uk/shop/products/index.aspx/category/varroa-control-2

 

[KPBee]

You beat me to it, I just googled it! Got their number, I'll sort it tomorrow, thanks Hivemaker.

What do you think about the OA treatment in Winter as well as the Apivar now?

 

[Madge]

The bee vet.

Amitraz strips.
http://www.bee-vet.co.uk/shop/products/index.aspx/category/varroa-control-2

I notice they also sell a predator mite treatment that I've not heard of before. It seems like an ongoing extra kind of treatment (not to replace Amitraz (Apivar)). Has anybody used these predator mites?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Apistan is not likely to be very effective, better to use Apivar.

That's the one - always get them confused as luckily my bees have never got to that stage, forgot to mention that pyrethroid resistance is high in some areas

 

[chrismcd]

I agree

Apistan is not likely to be very effective, better to use Apivar.

Don't know the resistance situation in Devon. But, now we are into colder weather, it will have to be a pesticide of some sort and my preference would be for the narrower spectrum of a miticide like the amitraz in Apivar.

I used Apiguard in late August and got probably the last of the warm muggy days that it needs to work properly.

Late onset Varroa is a pest!

 

[KPBee]

Tell me about it! Thanks for the advice. I'll give them a treatment of Apivar. I rang and e-mailed 'The Bee Vet' this morning.

I guess the rationale for Apiguard probably not working either is because it is Thymol based as is Apilife Var and Apistan not being first choice because of it's resistance to pyrethroids which I think was first confirmed down here in Devon in 2001.