demaree question

[Cuckmere couple]

so, motivated by Dani suggesting i try demaree this year for maximising honey crop, I have reflected on my demaree experience two years ago. This was for queen rearing and worked well.

My method followed by a question.

I will have from bottom up Q in LBB, QE, 2xSupers (? another QE) UBB
I will put all the eggs and larvae in UBB and replace frames off eggs in LBB with capped or empty frames from UBB.
I will knock down QC in UBB or use them for nucs.

Is that correct?

Question.

What would happen if I missed a QC in UBB or left the QCs, given i am not using a board with an entrance up there?

 

[Erichalfbee]

You need an upper entrance if you are keeping it going

 

[Cuckmere couple]

is that right Dani....how long can you keep demaree going without or should it always have an upper entrance etc?

 

[Erichalfbee]

I have only ever kept mine rolling usually till the end of June so last year that was 9 weeks. You need that top entrance to let the drones out. I know JBM has inadvertently missed a QC and ended up with a perfectly functioning two queen colony

 

[Cuckmere couple]

ok, thanks Dani, so it's to let the drones out

I will have a go with a couple of colonies

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I will put all the eggs and larvae in UBB and replace frames off eggs in LBB with capped or empty frames from UBB.
I will knock down QC in UBB or use them for nucs.

Only move empty frames back down to the lower Box, leave the capped frames up top until emerged

Question.

What would happen if I missed a QC in UBB or left the QCs, given i am not using a board with an entrance up there?

If there is no upper entrance, you will end up with an unmated virgin which could cause problems when you take down the Demarree - you will also end up with brood frames full of drone brood - something you definitely don't want.
An upper entrance avoids lot of problems and could leave you with a bonus colony - I've yet to see there being a problem running with two queens. Also, as you don't get many QC's at the best of times, the chances of them throwing a swarm out are slim.
Here's an example of a simple Demarree board for the top box

 

[Swarm]

ok, thanks Dani, so it's to let the drones out

I will have a go with a couple of colonies

It will also allow that virgin to go off and mate if you miss a queen cell

 

[Erichalfbee]

Emyr. Do you think there is an advantage in using your Demaree board? Rather than a QX which is all I have ever used

 

[Cuckmere couple]

thanks JBM....very helpful...ill give it a go

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Emyr. Do you think there is an advantage in using your Demaree board? Rather than a QX which is all I have ever used

I use Demarree to make increase as well as for swarm avoidance, some queens I have (especially the number 5 line) have pretty strong pheromones and are very reluctant to make supersedure cells unless they want to supersede. Very early on, I could see some advantages of a top entrance (releasing drones, especially if a rolling Demarree) and a QX up top stops the drones getting into the honey supers (not really a big deal though) and being tight, making a Demarree floor/crownboard with only a small area of QX meant that not only does less pheromone get through to the top box, hence triggering QC building, but one single punched galvanised QX bought for a pound at the bee auctions has made loads of boards.

 

[jeff33]

Credit to Emyr, these boards are great. I have used them for the last 2 seasons and can fulfil 3 functions:
- demaree (I will leave the board all season with frame rotation and either split or unite when I remove the supers in August).
- reactive split if swarm preps are made (I cover the qx cut out with a fine mesh so bees don't have free movement). I either run it that way for the season and split or re-unite after 3 weeks.
- Cloake Board when I do a Q+ cell raiser. I cover the hole with a bit of 3mm ply for 5 days and remove afterwards leaving the cells to mature til day 12.

 

[Cuckmere couple]

a further ?

If you rotate the frames (empties to the bottom and eggs to the top) through the season with such a board, do you get to a situation where you need a super above the UBB i.e. the emerged/nurse bees have matured to flyers and are returning to the UBB with stores?

I dont suppose that when promoted to flyers, they drop to the bottom box so i guess the answer is yes to supers above the UBB?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

a further ?

If you rotate the frames (empties to the bottom and eggs to the top) through the season with such a board, do you get to a situation where you need a super above the UBB i.e. the emerged/nurse bees have matured to flyers and are returning to the UBB with stores?

I dont suppose that when promoted to flyers, they drop to the bottom box so i guess the answer is yes to supers above the UBB?

you can do either - you can keep adding shallows below the top box and above the bottom box as the bees will just store it wherever there's space, the bees will use whichever entrance they find easiest, they will behave as just one big colony and will store honey in the top brood box as well, however that means it can get quite strenuous lifting the top brood box higher each inspection

 

[Cuckmere couple]

great thanks...i just its a matter of reading it and seeing where theyre storing...wont hurt to put a super above the UBB and see where they store

 

[beeno]

I use Demarree to make increase as well as for swarm avoidance, some queens I have (especially the number 5 line) have pretty strong pheromones and are very reluctant to make supersedure cells unless they want to supersede. Very early on, I could see some advantages of a top entrance (releasing drones, especially if a rolling Demarree) and a QX up top stops the drones getting into the honey supers (not really a big deal though) and being tight, making a Demarree floor/crownboard with only a small area of QX meant that not only does less pheromone get through to the top box, hence triggering QC building, but one single punched galvanised QX bought for a pound at the bee auctions has made loads of boards.

Supersedure cells are primary cells. Any cells in the top box would be emergency cells since you have not got a queen up there!

 

[Swarm]

There is queen pheromone throughout the hive though diminished in the upper chamber due to the distance between boxes, the board which has only a small hole in it and the fact she hasn't walked on those upper combs for a while.
There is no omg we're queenless panic situation, they will draw a few cells, not the numbers you see with emergency cells, they are selective, very selective, which makes it such a good way to raise new queens.

 

[Antipodes]

I've seen differences of opinion on this topic before. Could the queen cells be best categorised as neither emergency or supersedure....so give them some other name perhaps? A fourth type of queen cell?

 

[jeff33]

Supersedure cells are primary cells. Any cells in the top box would be emergency cells since you have not got a queen up there!

From my experience they only make 1-2 cells, its supercedure as opposed to emergency as there are still pheromones throughout the hive, albeit being weak in the top box.

 

[naxx3]

Thanks for the pictures.

And hope all your projects work out and turn success.

 

[Erichalfbee]

great thanks...i just its a matter of reading it and seeing where theyre storing...wont hurt to put a super above the UBB and see where they store

That's what I did. My best Demarree had three supers on top and I ended up with honey in five supers and a 14x12 by the time I took it down.