Demaree - First Impressions

[Beedogg]

Caveat: I'm a beginner (second season) so please take my observations with a pinch of salt. But they might be helpful or at least prompt better informed comments from others...

I wanted to try the Demaree method of Swarm Pre-emption rather than merely relying upon Swarm Prevention (I'm probably using the wrong terms, but you know what I mean). The theory of the Demaree is set out well in various books and in the sticky thread on this forum. It seemed on paper to be a good idea and so I thought I'd give it a go.

My challenge was that I have WBC hives and, as far as I can tell, the Demaree is optimised for single-skin hives. So, for I while I struggled with the issue of how (and if) I could provide an entrance for the upper Brood Box - congniscent of the fact that I gather that Mr Demaree didn't specify an entrance there at all but that nowadays most feel that some sort of provision is required to allow hatched drones to get out.

My initial attempt was to provide a spacing board with an entrance that sat between two Lifts (outer skins). The problem with that solution is that unless they exactly align with the separations between the various boxes inside the hive then such a spacer creates a gap between the boxes. So I abandoned that idea and instead decided that I would insert a shallow eke to provide an upper entrance within the hive (allowing bees from the upper BB to leave it but remain within the outer skin) and see how they all got on using the same main entrance/exit to the outside world (see pic below). My logic was that since all the bees from the upper and lower BBs came from the same queen and were, in essence, part of the same colony I couldn't see why they would have difficulty using the same main entrance. I also could not fathom the need for an upper QE (ie, a QE below the upper BB) and so I omitted that.

I've now had the Demaree running for a couple of weeks and have done a couple of manipulations which involve moving empty (hatched) frames from the upper BB to the lower one for the queen to re-lay in, and replacing them with full frames from the lower BB in what I gather will be an ongoing cycle for the main part of the season. In addition one needs to check the upper BB for EQCs which may be built there as a result of the bees there potentially regarding themselves as Q- since they are separated from the queen in the lower BB. My initial mistake was not moving enough frames of brood into the top BB (ie, leaving the Queen with too may layed-up frames in the bottom BB - thus defeating the whole purpose). I've corrected that now and for the last couple of cycles I've left her with only 3 frames of brood and moved all the rest into the top BB to hatch. I do wonder slightly whether it is necessary to leave her any brood at all apart from the frame she's on..?

I have a single super on the bottom BB and a single super on the top BB. The top one is now more or less full and about 40% capped and I need to think about extracting it, maybe this weekend. We have a lot of OSR around here and so I don't want to delay. The bottom super is being drawn out nicely and being slowly filled.

The bees in the hive seem very happy. There seem to be gazillions of them. I did find a charged QC in the bottom BB on the last inspection yesterday and one in the top BB - but I didn't find lots of EQCs in the top one and so I deduce that the spacing of one super between BBs allows enough queen pheremone to percolate from the bottom to the top.

It's early days and so I obviously need to be very careful about leaping to conclusions. But thus far I'm quite pleased with the way in which the Demaree has worked out on my WBC hive and I've now performed the same procedure on the second colony. We'll see what happens. The only downside I've so far encountered is the fact that once one piles two BBs and two supers on top of one another with a roof, one ends up with something slightly resembling a sky-scraper (hive on the right). But I don't really see a way around that.

 

[Erichalfbee]

If you keep the Demaree rolling a tall stack is inevitable. My last one had 14x12 two supers 14x12 four supers.
My top excluder was to provide an upper entrance.
Keep on top of varroa with those gazillions off bees
As for brood you move capped frames up and empty frames down irrespective of how many there are.
The bees will fill the top brood with honey if you don’t keep on top of top super provision.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I also could not fathom the need for an upper QE (ie, a QE below the upper BB) and so I omitted that.

There isn't - initially the reason for a QE was to stop drones getting into the supers which was a major inconvenience for those srtill insisting on using Porter escapes when clearing them out, I use a 'Demarree board' with only a small square of QE, this is to reduce the amount of queen pheromone getting to the top box thus inducing the supersedure instinct, the queen excluder is also handy to stop any queen inadvertently (or purposely) raised in the top box from laying up all the supers, obviously if you don't have a top entrance it doesn't matter as she won't get mated anyway.

My initial mistake was not moving enough frames of brood into the top BB .......I do wonder slightly whether it is necessary to leave her any brood at all apart from the frame she's on..?

No, none at all, in fact all you need to do is to leave her plenty of drawn comb to lay in

In addition one needs to check the upper BB for EQCs which may be built there as a result of the bees there potentially regarding themselves as Q

They are not actually Emergency queen cells but rather supersedure cells as the top box still gets a whiff of queen substance - hence you never get many QC's anyway, and often none.

 

[StephenT]

I’m doing it as well for the first time. Set it up last Sunday with three supers between the two BBs but plan to move the empty one we inserted last Sunday up above the top BB as brood will be emerging from there now and don’t want it to be backfilled as far as possible. Seeing on how they have been filling this week, could even add another above the top BB and leave the 3 in place. I guess at the end of week 1 there won’t be any capped brood in the lower BB to move up and so that will have to wait for the following inspection. Do people generally look to swap frames every 7 days to coincide with normal inspections? Also, if I wanted to make a nuc using any QCs in the top BB (assuming there are any), does it matter if you stick a frame in the nuc with more than one QC on it? I can’t think why it would as i assume they wouldn’t swarm from the nuc.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I guess at the end of week 1 there won’t be any capped brood in the lower BB to move up and so that will have to wait for the following inspection. Do people generally look to swap frames every 7 days to coincide with normal inspections?

I seldom go in to the bottom brood box until two or three weeks after the Demarree, then it gets the normal 7 day treatment although there is no great urgency until she has filled up to eight frames again.

does it matter if you stick a frame in the nuc with more than one QC on it? I can’t think why it would as i assume they wouldn’t swarm from the nuc.

No - in fact I often do - if there are more than one QC in the top box, even if on separate frames, then those frames (with QCs attached) go into the nuc.

 

[StephenT]

I seldom go in to the bottom brood box until two or three weeks after the Demarree, then it gets the normal 7 day treatment although there is no great urgency until she has filled up to eight frames again.

Thanks. I'm just a bit concerned about them making swam preps regardless. Small risk I guess but we do keep the bees in the suburbs so trying to be extra careful. Tempted to make a nuc even though we were trying to keep it to 3 hives.

 

[user 20297]

There isn't - initially the reason for a QE was to stop drones getting into the supers which was a major inconvenience for those srtill insisting on using Porter escapes when clearing them out, I use a 'Demarree board' with only a small square of QE, this is to reduce the amount of queen pheromone getting to the top box thus inducing the supersedure instinct, the queen excluder is also handy to stop any queen inadvertently (or purposely) raised in the top box from laying up all the supers, obviously if you don't have a top entrance it doesn't matter as she won't get mated anyway.

No, none at all, in fact all you need to do is to leave her plenty of drawn comb to lay in

They are not actually Emergency queen cells but rather supersedure cells as the top box still gets a whiff of queen substance - hence you never get many QC's anyway, and often none.

Thankyou for a very helpful post which covers some bits of information I haven't seen elsewhere.

 

[Beedogg]

As accurately predicted by some, whilst the circulation of frames appears to be working, there are now some stores going into the emptied brood frames in the top BB in addition to into the top super. Should I be concerned about that? How do I stop it? How do I encourage the bees to put all the stores into the super above?
Interestingly, in the second colony that I Demaree'd last week I noticed today that there appear to be a couple of QCs in the lower BB (which I'd missed, ouch) and which appear to have now been torn down by the bees. I'm guessing that that indicates that the relief of pressure in the bottom BB has deterred or deferred the swarming urge.

 

[StephenT]

I would also be interested in knowing how best to manage the situation of nectar going in after the brood has emerged. As it’s older brood frames that have had contact with apivar, not sure whether I would want to let them fill them and then extract. Was thinking of putting the whole BB under the lower BB and then they should move the nectar up into a super. Would provide a massive amount of space for the queen to lay but would then need to use a third BB to maintain the Demaree.

 

[Boston Bees]

I would also be interested in knowing how best to manage the situation of nectar going in after the brood has emerged. As it’s older brood frames that have had contact with apivar, not sure whether I would want to let them fill them and then extract.

There is no issue with extracting honey from wax which once had contact with Apivar

 

[Swarm]

Third box is an option or at some point just allow them to bring on a queen and unite at the end of season.