definitive guide to standard top bar practice?

[mbc]

Reply: Pass. Never seen that as a problem. After all most National hive brrod nests are often strung out horizontally..

I listed poor nest shape as the most important factor because from what I've seen round here, warre hives do very well and even raw begginers seem to have no trouble keeping bees alive in them (unlike kenyan tbh's) and the only difference I can think of is the vertical vs horizontal set up. I suppose your original point about open mesh floors is critical if a long, low nest has a draft sweeping right across the bottom of it.

 

[madasafish]

I listed poor nest shape as the most important factor because from what I've seen round here, warre hives do very well and even raw begginers seem to have no trouble keeping bees alive in them (unlike kenyan tbh's) and the only difference I can think of is the vertical vs horizontal set up. I suppose your original point about open mesh floors is critical if a long, low nest has a draft sweeping right across the bottom of it.

When I started in 2010 I had one TBH and I thought it really needed bottom boards - despite them being excluded from Biobees plans. So I used one.. and got through the -18C winter unscathed.

At that point I expanded to 2 TBHs and decided to run an experiment with the original hive with the bottom board and the new one without. The new hive started as a May swarm and by June it was clear it was not expanding quickly - and the combs were built much shorter than teh other one. So I put in a bottom board - and suddenly the colony appeared to perk up and the combe were extended right to the hive bottom.

After that I was convinced of their need in this climate.

 

[pargyle]

When I started in 2010 I had one TBH and I thought it really needed bottom boards - despite them being excluded from Biobees plans. So I used one.. and got through the -18C winter unscathed.

At that point I expanded to 2 TBHs and decided to run an experiment with the original hive with the bottom board and the new one without. The new hive started as a May swarm and by June it was clear it was not expanding quickly - and the combs were built much shorter than teh other one. So I put in a bottom board - and suddenly the colony appeared to perk up and the combe were extended right to the hive bottom.

After that I was convinced of their need in this climate.

I think this is good advice ... even Phil Chandler is now experimenting with a 'deep floor' filled with shavings and woodchips ... ostensibly mimicking hollow tree hives but actually it must provide insulation and draughtproofing.

 

[madasafish]

I think this is good advice ... even Phil Chandler is now experimenting with a 'deep floor' filled with shavings and woodchips ... ostensibly mimicking hollow tree hives but actually it must provide insulation and draughtproofing.

I have insulated floors on three hives: this is their first winter with insulated floors so I will be interested to see what happens

 

[Birdsnbees]

I have insulated floors on three hives: this is their first winter with insulated floors so I will be interested to see what happens

Hi madasafish, Following your threads with interest, I am venturing into the unknown this season with an Horizontal TBH, I Aquired one this winter, converted it to OMF , hinged the pitched roof, ready for bees later on, may make a feeder? only 10 miles up the road from SOT.

 

[madasafish]

PM'd you.

 

[user 6228]

This is disappointing...

not only no consensus but no useful information

 

[Tom Bick]

Sorry you feel that way Derek I thought you received the answer in the first few posts as there is no standard configuration to the TBH they look similar but a number of variations and personal adaptations makes a standard impossible. You will have to go with the TBH you have now and run your experiment and then say if it has a removal bottom board insert it or remove it and then run the experiment again.

I currently have my TBH it’s the sloping sides variety with insulated roof and currently open mesh floor but when I check it along with other hives this weekend I will insert the tray so I can assess the colony from what it collects or not.

 

[pargyle]

This is disappointing...

not only no consensus but no useful information

I have some sympathy Derek ... I've spent nearly two years researching TBH's and there's a huge amount of information on the internet ... much of it as conflicting as that found in more conventional beekeeping. I filtered it all down and eventually decided on:

a) Tanzanian style to 14 x 12 frame dimensions (More from the convenience of being able to take a standard nuc if necessary)

b) OMF but with a removable solid floor to measure Varroa drop and variable ventilation at the bottom edge of the floor tray.

d) Insulation on the sides (double skin timber with 30mm HD polystyrene in the sandwich) ... the ends are solid 1" thick timber.

e) Pitched roof with space for a feeder and insulation, if required, above the top bars.

f) DIY foundationless frames (at least in part) top bars have V shaped timber starter strips on them. Top bars are 32mm & 35mm wide and the hive takes 30 of them.

g) Top entrance but with a 'periscope' to give the bees an entrance and landing block at a lower level and control heat loss from a top entrance. The periscope is removable if this proves not viable.

h) I'm still toying with the idea of a 'deep fill' floor beneath the OMF filled with shavings/wood chips as per Phil Chandlers latest experiment.

Everything about the hive is flexible ... if I find things don't work or better ideas come along then it can be changed (apart from the basic 'box'). I've got a second hive made to this spec and planning a third smaller bait hive.

The reality is that there are some very successful TBH beekeepers around but they nearly all have different ideas and differing styles of Top bar hive ... some are totally averse to any 'treatments' some are more pragmatic and treat their hives and bees much in the way that more conventional beekeepers do. The more you investigate the more diversity you find ... but it's just the same in more conventional beekeeping circles. I eventually made my own mind up on the basis of everything I had read ... I don't know if my hive is right but it's a starting point and will evolve along with my beekeeping methods in general.

I've only read two books specifically on TBH - Phil Chandlers book, 'The Barefoot Beekeeper' which leans very much towards a 'low level of interference' and Michael Bush's 'the Practical Beekeeper' (which is a very interesting read) but I have read literally hundreds of pages on the internet and lots of general beekeeping books ... There are some new(ish) books now on the market about TBH but I'm not sure there is, as yet, a definitive TBH book equivalent to Ted Hooper, David Cramp etc. So ... best of luck, sorry there's no formal blueprint for you to follow.

 

[drex]

I am with madasafish here. It is not about what you keep bees in, but how you keep bees. I started off with conventional hives e.g Nationals, and when I was confident enough branched out into TBH's. I solved the problems I encountered as I went along, designing a feeder for my own hive for example. I have no hard and fast rules, just try to work along with the bees.

Derek M, a Warre hive is a TBH ( albeit vertical not horizontal), and in his book Warre gave his plans for building one. Probably the only standard you are likely to find.

My KTBH ( with a bottom board under the mesh at present - but open all summer) is thriving along with my Nationals and probably is one of my most active hives at present

 

[Madge]

...

d) Insulation on the sides (double skin timber with 30mm HD polystyrene in the sandwich) ... the ends are solid 1" thick timber.
...
g) Top entrance but with a 'periscope' to give the bees an entrance and landing block at a lower level and control heat loss from a top entrance. The periscope is removable if this proves not viable. ...

How thick are the timber skins on the sides, Pargyle? Did you use plywood or proper timber planks?

Can you please explain the periscope idea a bit more. Do the bees enter the periscope at floor level, and climb up a tube to a top entrance? Why do they need a top entrance?
Kitta

 

[pargyle]

How thick are the timber skins on the sides, Pargyle? Did you use plywood or proper timber planks?

Can you please explain the periscope idea a bit more. Do the bees enter the periscope at floor level, and climb up a tube to a top entrance? Why do they need a top entrance?
Kitta

For the first TBH I used reclaimed pine floorboards for the sides of the hive - they are just over 1/2" thick, the HD polystyrene is three sheets of 10mm sandwiched between the two layers of pine. The later TBH's I've made were from reclaimed pallet wood planks which are 10mm thick so, the hive walls are again, two layers of timber planks with an HD Polystyrene sandwich. I'm careful to use single use pallets as they are usually untreated timber.

I prefer solid timber (even reclaimed timber) as it is far better lasting than plywood.

The periscope entrance serves a few purposes ... the bees enter the hive near to the top of the hive so there is less chance of Varroa dropping onto them from above as they crawl into the hive (well, that's the theory !).

There will be less heat loss than if the hive entrance was just holes near the top of the hive. The guard bees appear to have more chance to resist wasp attack with the periscope entrance and there is little chance of mice getting into the hive. Other users of this type of entrance say it is quite successful as long as the periscope is not too shallow .. too shallow and it can get blocked when the drones are evicted late in the season.

Yes, the bees enter on a landing board at the bottom of the periscope and crawl up the periscope to enter the hive through holes just below the level of the top bars. The actual 'periscope' is just a timber box about 1" deep x 4" wide that is attached to the outside of the hive (in my case) with a couple of bolts with wingnuts so it can be removed, if necessary, for cleaning.

I can't lay claim to the idea ... it was a modified version of this one which I think originated with Phil Chandler:

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=juXbSNpi7wU[/ame]

 

[Madge]

Thank you, Pargyle. That is all very interesting. Your video led me to Phil Chandler's video (called 'Entrance modification for top bar hive') where he explains more about the periscope idea. Thanks,
Kitta

 

[Little John]

The periscope idea first originated in the 1950's. Here it is being used with a National OMF :

The original idea was that it kept direct draughts out of the hive, and made life difficult for any mice wishing to enter.

Chandler extended the periscope upwards to take comb access away from the floor.

LJ

 

[pargyle]

The periscope idea first originated in the 1950's. Here it is being used with a National OMF :

The original idea was that it kept direct draughts out of the hive, and made life difficult for any mice wishing to enter.

Chandler extended the periscope upwards to take comb access away from the floor.

LJ

See ... Great forum ... there's nothing much new in beekeeping and I learn something new every day !!

 

[madasafish]

Well yes a great idea but likely to become blocked with dead bees over winter and if it does, looks a pia to clear.

(similar to Dartington entrance I think)

 

[pargyle]

Well yes a great idea but likely to become blocked with dead bees over winter and if it does, looks a pia to clear.

(similar to Dartington entrance I think)

Yes .. I think that was one of the 'downside' comments I was concerned about so I made the 'lid' of the periscope box removable (just two wingnuts to get it off) so that I can get to the inside of the 'box' and if it proves at all difficult to use ... get rid of it altogether !

 

[Little John]

Yes .. I think that was one of the 'downside' comments I was concerned about so I made the 'lid' of the periscope box removable (just two wingnuts to get it off) so that I can get to the inside of the 'box' and if it proves at all difficult to use ... get rid of it altogether !

Although, afaik, periscope entrances are normally fitted inside the hive - is there any reason why one couldn't be clamped onto the outside of a hive - any clearing etc could then be done without disturbing the residents ... (or maybe yours is like that ?)

Duhhh - just re-read the thread - you're ahead of me on this one !

LJ

 

[pargyle]

Although, afaik, periscope entrances are normally fitted inside the hive - is there any reason why one couldn't be clamped onto the outside of a hive - any clearing etc could then be done without disturbing the residents ... (or maybe yours is like that ?)

Duhhh - just re-read the thread - you're ahead of me on this one !

LJ

He He ... we've all done that from time to time ... I replied to a thread that finished in 2009 which was bumped by a newbie !

Yes, it's on the outside, just two 1" x 1" vertical timbers with a couple of captive bolts in them. 2" x 1" Landing board forms the bottom of the periscope. The 'face' of the periscope is just a piece of plywood which is held in place with two wingnuts (all stainless steel) it's a 20 second job to take the face off it to either clear any debris. I will get round to some photos once the daylight (outside of working day) returns and the rain stops !