definitive guide to standard top bar practice?

[user 6228]

T bar experts,

I need to set up a Top bar hive(borrowed , thanks Doug) to its "normal" or "standard" winter configuration, so that I can measure the thermal conductance under a typical configuration. I also need a book/paper/article reference to the configuration.
I know very little about the operation of T bar hives.

Thanks

Derek

 

[Little John]

Sorry to be so blunt about this, but there cannot be such a thing as 'standard top bar practice' as there's no such thing as a standard Top Bar hive.

LJ


To expand: there are vertical Top Bar hives and horizontal Top Bar hives - which are very different animals. Then there are different kinds of Top Bar - some solid, some with beespaces between them to allow supering. With solid bars there is variability in Top Bar thicknesses, which obviously affects thermal conduction/ heat retention etc.

... and so on, there really are too many permutations around, to talk of standardisation.

If you describe the TBH you have, perhaps advice could then be given re: that particular hive ?

 

[susbees]

Quite, no standard size, shape, height, roof type, bar length, wall thicknesses or anything else.

Our "winter configuration" such as it is is to put in two of the three corks, roll out a mat of B&Q recycled plastic insulation on top of the bars after reducing the number of bars needed and moving in the dummy boards.

And this is our last season with tbh except for keeping one four footer for teaching purposes.

 

[madasafish]

My " standard" winter configuration is:
insulated roof and sides

This is the same for summer as well.

OMF floor.
Floor panel below that. Air gap<1cm.
This is the same for summer as well.

1 entrance open. Summer 3

A layer of carpet underlay - not rubber but wool/other fabric - under the roof resting on top of all the top bars. (removed in spring)

My roof extends down 25cms below the line of the topbars to reduce draughts.


err: that is it.

If you want any more info, just ask.

 

[oliver90owner]

Don't forget the Warre. Probably others, too. The National was a 'standard'; had a whole BS to go with it.

 

[Hivemaker.]

Don't forget the Warre. Probably others, too.

Kieler

 

[mbc]

Not sure about definative but the most usual trait of top bar hives in this area is that the bees in them dont survive the winter.

 

[madasafish]

Not sure about definative but the most usual trait of top bar hives in this area is that the bees in them dont survive the winter.

Which I suspect is due to no bottom boards in place##.. Just an OMF floor. Damp, wind, driven rain.. dead bees.

(The other beekeepers near me who tried TBHs had no bottom boards and their colonies failed to overwinter..)..

## as originally recommended by Phil Chandler and in his book. I believe he may have changed his mind...

 

[Brosville]

"bees in them dont survive the winter" what utter ignorant, misinformed cobblers (as usual!) - they survive very well indeed.............

 

[rolande]

"bees in them dont survive the winter" what utter ignorant, misinformed cobblers (as usual!) - they survive very well indeed.............

That's a rather selective quote out of a longer sentence. I'm surprised.

 

[madasafish]

That's a rather selective quote out of a longer sentence. I'm surprised.

I am not .. it's fairly typical I am afraid.

 

[Brosville]

The imputation was that TBHs were useless in winter - which could not be further from the truth- they are used widely all over the globe, including very cold places like Sweden

I'll lengthen the quote - " the most usual trait of top bar hives in this area is that the bees in them dont survive the winter" - the same still goes for the longer quote - it is phrased in such a way to suggest the hives are at fault, when I would suggest that is NOT the case....

 

[user 6228]

ok if not standard ... I need a common documented practice, for a credible test of the conductance. This hive is a basic wooden V trough with a mesh floor. the roof is a plain lipped wooden lid with roof felt on the top.

 

[Brosville]

There is no "standard" hive or configuration - you have all sorts of different thicknesses of wood, different types of wood, used both for the "body" and the top bars, there is "Tanzanian or Kenyan" (as well as such things as Warre hives) - I have mesh floors, but I also have a wooden covers over them - then there's the roof design itself - even on a "Kenyan" hive there are wide differences in roof design, airflow, insulation etc..... some have entrances on the long sides, some have them in the end...........
Add into that the "quilt" on a Warre you have a very wide disparity, so in my view it is going to be very difficult to give a "typical" hive (and hence make any sense of trying to "measure things" by referring to a "standard TBH" because they just don't exist............)

 

[mbc]

Which I suspect is due to no bottom boards in place##.. Just an OMF floor. Damp, wind, driven rain.. dead bees.

(The other beekeepers near me who tried TBHs had no bottom boards and their colonies failed to overwinter..)..

## as originally recommended by Phil Chandler and in his book. I believe he may have changed his mind...

In part I suspect you are right but its further driven by a number of factors including, in order of importance ( IMO );
-poor nest shape due to the elongated horizontal nature of most tbh hive bodies,
-early disruption of the new comb due to the bees not always being very obliging with regards to building straight combs and the need to "educate" the combs to effectively inspect them,
-inadequate feeding due to misguided advice (normally given from afar over the internet)and/or lack of information regarding their requirements, quite often due to lack of inspecting them because its a nightmare given the mess of higgledipiggeldy comb !
-inadequate varroa control normally due to the same misguided advice.

I put varroa control at the bottom of my order of importance as I've seldom come across a succesfully set up tbh that has survived long enough for varroa to become the primary problem.

I'm prepared to accept that my experience of tbh's may be different to others, but I wouldnt mind betting that quite a few beekeepers have also seen these problems and the associated losses in their areas.

 

[rolande]

I'll lengthen the quote - " the most usual trait of top bar hives in this area is that the bees in them dont survive the winter" - the same still goes for the longer quote

The 'same' being:

...what utter ignorant, misinformed cobblers (as usual!) - they survive very well indeed.............

Perhaps you should have written this to begin with:

it is phrased in such a way to suggest the hives are at fault, when I would suggest that is NOT the case....

Says what you wanted to say without the nastyness. Not too hard is it?

 

[mbc]

The 'same' being:



Perhaps you should have written this to begin with:



Says what you wanted to say without the nastyness. Not too hard is it?

Lol. I think I'll survive ( unlike most colonies of bees set up in tbh's in marginal areas most winters)

 

[rolande]

Lol. I think I'll survive

I'm sure you will! But I often wonder what 'outsiders' think when they read a lot of the stuff on bee forums. Chefs have a saying "people eat with their eyes" which holds true for just about everything; it's in the presentation.

 

[Hivemaker.]

What is the survival rate of swarms that escape into the wild, not many last year i would think.

 

[madasafish]

Taking your points in order and tring to give an objective reply:

In part I suspect you are right but its further driven by a number of factors including, in order of importance ( IMO );
-poor nest shape due to the elongated horizontal nature of most tbh hive bodies


Reply: Pass. Never seen that as a problem. After all most National hive brrod nests are often strung out horizontally..


-early disruption of the new comb due to the bees not always being very obliging with regards to building straight combs and the need to "educate" the combs to effectively inspect them,

Reply: I have 4 nucs and 4 full size TBHs. In three years I have only had one case of cross combing...Most cases are in my view due to incorrect levelling of the hive or poor comb guides. I use triangular sections - which are large - rubbed with wax.. and have - as I say - minimal problems.


-inadequate feeding due to misguided advice (normally given from afar over the internet)and/or lack of information regarding their requirements, quite often due to lack of inspecting them because its a nightmare given the mess of higgledipiggeldy comb !

Reply: Now here I have to choose my words carefully. There are LOTS of "no feeding " nutters - who lose their hives to starvation but of course are pure!
And these idiots frequent lots of forums and influence beginners (More on that later)

-inadequate varroa control normally due to the same misguided advice.
Reply: Lots of "don't treat " nutters as well. They somehow fail to mention their losses when doing so..

I put varroa control at the bottom of my order of importance as I've seldom come across a succesfully set up tbh that has survived long enough for varroa to become the primary problem.
Reply: Well I have my original two hives now three years old...

I'm prepared to accept that my experience of tbh's may be different to others, but I wouldnt mind betting that quite a few beekeepers have also seen these problems and the associated losses in their areas.

My views are pretty obvious from the above.

But in my view the major problem is in my view that most TBH newcomers are new to beekeeping and have no experience of bees. Most of the internet advice is from enthusiasts and purists who forget what a steep learning curve beekeeping is to a newbie.

I was fortunate: I ignored the rubbish and bilge talked about the BBKA from some on this and other forums, joined and learned on conventional hives.

After 3 months I reckonned I could do it myself.

Some obvious hive mods - eg floors - etc came with experience and I treated the "do not treat or feed" advice with the contempt it deserves..

I also note that the most vociferous of natural beekeepers on TBHs and SUn Hives live and keep in southern England where you have to on the whole work hard to kill your bees off over winter.. (altho' this year may be an exception)

As far as I am aware, there are not many successful TBH keepers around here: the winters are harsh and despite what many say, keeping bees alive in them is not easy. I reckon a National is easier to manage..

BUT the seasoned keepers who have seen my bees seem to find them amazingly docile.. just as well for my bare hands.

HTH