Daughter colonys acting so different.

[Finman]

Why it’s no different from any other race of bee

It depends, when you start to count. It is up to you, how you think.

 

[Ian123]

If you’ve paid top dollar for them and the sole purpose of those queens/colony’s is to rear queens to stock production hives you’ll keep them as long as possible the age of the Breeder queen is no concern. I’ve known some who would keep II queens in a single brood reducing brood/bees so they last as many years a possible.

 

[Ian123]

But these are still not correctly described as F1.

....I think.

Ok what’s your definition of an f1 queen

 

[Curly green finger's]

Ok what’s your definition of an f1 queen

First cross.. Not necessarily f1.

 

[Ian123]

First cross.. Not necessarily f1.

Yes agreed but it’s the general term used by most of the larger queen breeders.

 

[BugsInABox]

Well I wouldn't claim to be anything but a beginner re bees but more generally to be considered F1 your need to understand the parents were genetically distinct. Eg cockapoo.
It seems very contrary to the whoke AMM philosophy.
As I say I'm new to bees and the haploid drone probably majes a difference so keen to learn.

 

[Curly green finger's]

Well I wouldn't claim to be anything but a beginner re bees but more generally to be considered F1 your need to understand the parents were genetically distinct. Eg cockapoo.
It seems very contrary to the whoke AMM philosophy.
As I say I'm new to bees and the haploid drone probably majes a difference so keen to learn.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...FjAEegQIChAI&usg=AOvVaw0Ii5w6nvp5zR1obBsAU4Nd[/URL]

I found this link on drones (haploid).

 

[fiat500bee]

Well I wouldn't claim to be anything but a beginner re bees but more generally to be considered F1 your need to understand the parents were genetically distinct
It seems very contrary to the whoke AMM philosophy.
As I say I'm new to bees

Like you I am new to bees, but this F1 purity concept seems odd to me.
I doubt that it is the case but theoretically an F1 Amm would be bred from a queen and a drone from geographically separate locations where there was a guarantee that both parents were themselves bred from separate geographical stocks of "pure" Amm bees...and so on back in time.
Maybe this happens but I think it more likely that the breeders have their own isolated populations which they consider to be "pure" and that they presumably make occasional crosses with bees from fellow breeders in order to reduce the occurence of inbreeding?
Not having been at this for all that long I'm still not sure of the genetic reason why subsequent generations from open-bred bees are said to have a tendency to swarm.

 

[Finman]

Tendency to swarm is bees' most natural habit, and non swarming is a genetic error selected by human. In crossings gene error is easy to heal back to natural.

 

[Antipodes]

Thank you all.....
I'm learning so much here..... "Snow Pixie"..... Never heard of such a thing....
Very descriptive - I can actually picture it.... Little "Forest Fairy" dithering in the cold.....

No offense intended Mr Finman....

We have the bunyip here.

Frightening thing to charge at you in the apiary.

 

[Ian123]

The principal would be the same - but from what I understand of most AMM projects it’s about breeding towards a goal by mixing and harvesting from the gene pool that’s out there to get back towards a natural (as opposed to pure bred) UK native type bee. The philosophy seems to be the opposite of pure breed F1 pedigree type races with their F2/3 potential issues.

Ok I think I see we are at cross purposes F1 is not the pedigree but the first cross so daughter of the pure race /strain. Does that help. As to f2/3 issues no more so than any other bee imo 2-3 generations from your original mother. Where’s B+ when you need him!!

 

[BugsInABox]

Ok I think I see we are at cross purposes F1 is not the pedigree but the first cross so daughter of the pure race /strain. Does that help. As to f2/3 issues no more so than any other bee imo 2-3 generations from your original mother. Where’s B+ when you need him!!

yes I think so, but it's unlikely thay amm are pure race/strain. And yes, if they are not you won't get the f2/3 issue.

 

[fiat500bee]

Tendency to swarm is bees' most natural habit, and non swarming is a genetic error selected by human. In crossings gene error is easy to heal back to natural.

Great explanation Mr. Finman. Thank-you.

 

[fiat500bee]

Ok I think I see we are at cross purposes F1 is not the pedigree but the first cross so daughter of the pure race /strain. .

But that begs the question...."pure race/strain" of what???

Are they produced from a captive population of bees which have limited opportunity to mingle with other than their parental stocks, or do they get regular introduction of new genes from "outside"?

From what I have read about Buckfasts for instance, to be from the original "recipe" and to be scientifically F1 there would need to be a very long build-up with each batch of queens as all of the original crosses were re-done. If Buckfast queens are descended from the original stock, which you can presumably call "first generation", every subsequent queen is an "F" with an increasingly large number as a suffix.

I'm obviously still missing something.

 

[Curly green finger's]

Ok I think I see we are at cross purposes F1 is not the pedigree but the first cross so daughter of the pure race /strain. Does that help. As to f2/3 issues no more so than any other bee imo 2-3 generations from your original mother. Where’s B+ when you need him!!

Paul has left.. He would of been all over this thread.
I might ask him why he doesn't post.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Paul has left.. He would of been all over this thread.
I might ask him why he doesn't post.

See if you can persuade him to return.

 

[Curly green finger's]

I've got to sp

See if you can persuade him to return.

I've got to speak to him anyway.

 

[Finman]

Wikipedia says that F1 is crossing between two distinctly different varietes or strains .

That is clearly said. It you buy F1 seeds, they are not what ever crossings.

I have studied genetics in university, but I do not understand much about this discussion. What I get is fairy humour.

F1 has been know since Mendell, but where the knowledge vanished now?

 

[Murox]

Paul has left.. He would of been all over this thread.
I might ask him why he doesn't post.

I have missed his valuable contributions as well. I do not know his personal circumstances; but I could guess that the stream of mean-spirited criticism often hurled at him might have influenced a decision not to compromise his personal integrity and ethical principles further.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I have missed his valuable contributions as well. I do not know his personal circumstances; but I could guess that the stream of mean-spirited criticism often hurled at him might have influenced a decision not to compromise his personal integrity and ethical principles further.

He gave as good as he got
I think his issue was with the new forum rules on intellectual copyright (although personally I think Angie explained it well enough to make it a non issue)