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Daughter colonys acting so different.

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Hi morning, so I raised 6 queen's from the same mother this season, I've kept two of them and the other four were sold as 6 frame nucs.
These daughter queen's were raised from f1 Amm stock from 2019, all of the queen's looked the same when they emerged and the nucs that I made up all mated and built up well.
I sold all four with four frames of solid brood ( some had bias in amongst the capped brood) and two good frames of mixed honey and pollen.

The Queen I want to talk about in perticular is a nuc a fellow association member had.
So he had the nuc on the 23rd of june both me and him transferred the nuc into a single brood box.. They had stores around the out side of every frame plus the two mixed.
When we put the frames in the single brood I put a drawn frame on the outside of the cluster to give hm some more room.. And Alan was going to check them in 3 days time to assess there situation.

Fast forward and they have swarmed and now he has laying workers.. Gutted really
What's interesting is the other nucs have done really well even produced some honey..
Is this my fault or Alan's for not keeping an eye on them I can't help but feel a bit responsible.
Thanks
Mark
 

Erichalfbee 

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Hi morning, so I raised 6 queen's from the same mother this season, I've kept two of them and the other four were sold as 6 frame nucs.
These daughter queen's were raised from f1 Amm stock from 2019, all of the queen's looked the same when they emerged and the nucs that I made up all mated and built up well.
I sold all four with four frames of solid brood ( some had bias in amongst the capped brood) and two good frames of mixed honey and pollen.

The Queen I want to talk about in perticular is a nuc a fellow association member had.
So he had the nuc on the 23rd of june both me and him transferred the nuc into a single brood box.. They had stores around the out side of every frame plus the two mixed.
When we put the frames in the single brood I put a drawn frame on the outside of the cluster to give hm some more room.. And Alan was going to check them in 3 days time to assess there situation.

Fast forward and they have swarmed and now he has laying workers.. Gutted really
What's interesting is the other nucs have done really well even produced some honey..
Is this my fault or Alan's for not keeping an eye on them I can't help but feel a bit responsible.
Thanks
Mark
Mark, unless you are undertaking the inspections the responsibility lies with Alan.
If you were mentoring him I'm sure you gave him adequate instructions.
It happens
I've had the worst year since I started beekeeping in 2007
One laying worker colony
One drone layer
And I killed a queen putting a Demaree back together. **IT happens
 

Ian123 

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I don’t think 1 swarming is your responsibility in any way, particularly if the bloke didn’t put them in a big enough box. So how are the others acting differently. Also should add if you are raising queens from f1 stock then you should expect variation particularly due to the fact there are very few providing pure/line bred queens in this country in the first place. So personally am rather dubious when some claim to be selling a pure bee of any sort, so it’s a case of the buyer being informed. Ian
 
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Hachi 

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If I were to start selling Nucs and queens I reckon I'd be sending a very good percentage to a certain death.

This is the bee sellers nightmare, people nowadays are quite content, and often think it is the responsibility of others, for their actions. If you step in and assist you make yourself responsible for everything they did but if you don't you are often ridiculed sometimes with quite worrying extremism.

The answer is elusive but the best I've seen is providing an instruction sheet at point of sale. If selling queens, a no quibble offer to replace under certain conditions may be the way to go.
 

Ian123 

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It’s also the case I find that the biggest percentage of queen failures happen soon after mating even some that get up and running can fail shortly after. So it may well be the case in this instance if it’s just been presumed they swarmed. Most brought in queens have only headed small nucs so are not really tested and in fairness there’s little the supplier can do apart from check before selling, often a point forgotten by the purchaser. I introduced some queens a couple of weeks ago and found a queen cell in 1 that had a pupae with a mite on its abdomen, if she had emerged I wonder how long she would have lasted.
 
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Just thinking about my ancient olevel biology genetics - is it correct to describe AMM as F1 - just saying as if they are not strictly F1 you might expect less dramatic variation - might explain why the others or ok.
Also ‘cos of haploid drones I think it’s in the daughters of the daughters were the really characteristics really change??
 

Ian123 

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Just thinking about my ancient olevel biology genetics - is it correct to describe AMM as F1 - just saying as if they are not strictly F1 you might expect less dramatic variation - might explain why the others or ok.
Also ‘cos of haploid drones I think it’s in the daughters of the daughters were the really characteristics really change??
These daughters are f2 at best so really Heinz 57 I would think variations are to be expected.
 

Finman 

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Just thinking about my ancient olevel biology genetics - is it correct to describe AMM as F1 - just saying as if they are not strictly F1 you might expect less dramatic variation - might explain why the others or ok.
Also ‘cos of haploid drones I think it’s in the daughters of the daughters were the really characteristics really change??

That mother queen F1 may be what ever in open mating.
 

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I think it’s in the daughters of the daughters were the really characteristics really change?
Sometimes, maybe often, perhaps never: depends on 57 variables and declining temper in daughters is not guaranteed no matter what the books say. If you do find defensive genes delete them with your boot, unite to something better and move on.
 

Ian123 

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That mother queen F1 may be what ever in open mating.
Not really true from a pure race/line f1 tend to be true to the mother even open random mated it’s what most commercial suppliers provide. Unless you are paying a premium.
 

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Hi morning, so I raised 6 queen's from the same mother this season, I've kept two of them and the other four were sold as 6 frame nucs.
These daughter queen's were raised from f1 Amm stock from 2019, all of the queen's looked the same when they emerged and the nucs that I made up all mated and built up well.
I sold all four with four frames of solid brood ( some had bias in amongst the capped brood) and two good frames of mixed honey and pollen.

The Queen I want to talk about in perticular is a nuc a fellow association member had.
So he had the nuc on the 23rd of june both me and him transferred the nuc into a single brood box.. They had stores around the out side of every frame plus the two mixed.
When we put the frames in the single brood I put a drawn frame on the outside of the cluster to give hm some more room.. And Alan was going to check them in 3 days time to assess there situation.

Fast forward and they have swarmed and now he has laying workers.. Gutted really
What's interesting is the other nucs have done really well even produced some honey..
Is this my fault or Alan's for not keeping an eye on them I can't help but feel a bit responsible.
Thanks
Mark
During my septuagerian lockdown I had a call from a couple who had started beekeeping about four years ago but had given up some time previously to say bees had moved in to an empty hive. With some remote beekeeping things sounded to be progressing but then began to go awry. Eventually I persuaded a competent geek to make a visit. Turned out a significant amount of misinterpretation and personal enhancement of phone instructions had gone on. Fortunately intervention was in time to rescue the colony.
Unless you were present during inspections you can't be responsible for the results. As with all teaching you can convey the knowledge but you can't guarantee the pupil has fully understood. Thinking back many years to my school days, passing an exam only required about half your answers be correct!
 
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Sometimes, maybe often, perhaps never: depends on 57 variables and declining temper in daughters is not guaranteed no matter what the books say. If you do find defensive genes delete them with your boot, unite to something better and move on.
I’m interested in this. When do you decide it’s defensive genes and when hybrid vigour?
 

Ian123 

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Hybrid vigour with the first cross, pot luck and maybe! defensive nature there after. It is 2 different things. The pot luck bit would also apply to any random/mongrel bee 2 generations from the original queen.
 

Finman 

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Not really true from a pure race/line f1 tend to be true to the mother even open random mated it’s what most commercial suppliers provide. Unless you are paying a premium.

I was talking about Curly's mother queens. Perhaps they are Premium pure.

But when you rear queens, first crossing hardly is F1.
 

Ian123 

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I was talking about Curly's mother queens. Perhaps they are Premium pure.

“But when you rear queens, first crossing hardly is F1”.
No Curley said his had been raised from f1 mothers.....Ok if my home reared first generation queens are not f1 what are they!
 
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fiat500bee 

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*ALERT* Newbee question. ;)
I don't understand how it can be that F1 queens can (all?) be so manageable and have desirable traits such as not being prone to swarming and being good tempered.
I would particularly expect Amm bees from "pure" stock to have a tendency to show characteristics which be of evolutionary benefit to them in the wild. It seems to be accepted that in terms of colony size, efficient use of food, response to local climate and in other positive traits, these bees retain those characteristics. By definition, swarming has got to be another advantageous trait in bees. It is when they make the opportunities to mix up the genes.
So what clever breeding technique allows an Amm grandmother to be an authentic specimen of the race whilst having the urge to swarm inhibited.
As for her grandchildren behaving differently; why not? Both my Grandads were lovely and I'm a right b*****d. ;)
 

Ian123 

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Depends on how their mothers were mated If open mated, they are just mongrels
Lol yes I get it I was just trying to get the snow pixie to justify his comment, the breeders I use are island or isolated mated.
 

ericbeaumont 

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I’m interested in this. When do you decide it’s defensive genes and when hybrid vigour?
Depends how you apply vigour: ideal interpretation is that the queen lays vigorously and the foragers work vigorously. Temper, or defensiveness, is not related to vigour unless you mean it to be so.
 
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