Crossing races = aggression

[TooBee...]

Hi

(I feel I could be starting an argument here, which is NOT my intention; it's just that I know that there are Queen / Bee Breeders on this forum that I think regularly cross different "races" of bees - you guys will know the answer, I know nothing )

I've heard the argument that crossing genetically different species causes 'hybrid vigor', i.e: two different dog breeds, same specie but genetically different enough to get 'vigorous' offspring (I remember my biology teacher teaching us this, which doesn't mean it's true).

HOWEVER within beekeeping circles I have heard that it also causes aggression!

While looking through an Irish website, which promotes the "native" (please don't define that word) black bee, I came across this claim:

"Cross breeding between races produces progeny which are renowned for their aggressiveness and can be very vicious in some cases"
found here under the heading "Our Native Honey Bees" point 9.
https://irishbeekeeping.ie/education/articles/grave-danger-bee-imports/

My QUESTION,
is this true...?

And please do not misunderstand me, I am not asking, if you allow a virgin Queen from a calm Queen to open mate with Drones from a different "race" (meaning genetically dis-similair within the same specie) which are in themselves from an aggressive Queen ... do you get aggressive bees, ... duh ... I would say so!

I am asking; ASSUMING that the Drones are from a CALM Queen, albeit of a different "race", will the "progeny" be more likely aggressive?

Could it just be an 'old wives tail', a rumor, or misconception, caused by Queens breeding with different races which are also aggressive, but the aggressive trait being blamed on their different "race"? Or could the author be overly promoting their black bees against the immigrants I mean non black bees?

 

[B+.]

I've heard the argument that crossing genetically different species causes 'hybrid vigor', i.e: two different dog breeds, same specie but genetically different enough to get 'vigorous' offspring (I remember my biology teacher teaching us this, which doesn't mean it's true).

If you had two (or more) independent lines which you bred generation after generation for the same trait, they could begin to show the effects of inbreeding depression (if the pools from which they came weren't big enough). You could then cross these two lines and you would see heterosis (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heterosis) because they are unrelated. This can happen within the same race so it doesn't have to be within different races.

 

[enrico]

Personally I think each queen has its own personality. I found that getting rid of those with bad traits was the answer. Just keep going until you get a queen that produces what you want. I have never bought a queen on its own in forty years ( I am laughing at myself now because as you may have read I am having unusual problems so I have had to buy new queens for all my hives!) I have ousted bad tempered ones. On occasions I left it too late and they became a problem but that was my own mistake. I have always had enough honey for me and usually enough to sell some, but I am not trying to make a living out of it. I do it for enjoyment and because I love honey.
I get attached to my queens and their temperament even decides in what order I inspect....best first
I have no idea what makes one hive quieter than another but being a keen gardener I need bees my family and I can live in harmony with. I will be interested to read what others think about inter breeding.
E

 

[Finman]

.
My opinion is that, the good features for human are anomalies in bees' genes. Human selects tame, no stinging and less swarming bee strains. But in nature those features are harmfull. In nature hives must defend their hives and they must propagate. Otherwise they do not exist.

Those good features are errors in bees' basic nature. When you cross different strains, genetic errors will be healed quickly and basic features rise onto surface.


But when selecting there are too harmfull features in genes, like sensitive to nosema, chalkbrood, Efb, inbreeding errors. Strickt selection drives bees fast to harmfull features if the genepool is small.

I have seen very calm hives, but the hive size was only 2 boxes. I do nothing with such hives.

.

 

[Quis Custodiet]

TooBee, you are right to ask questions and to make up your own mind and not to be misled by propaganda (from any source). Over the years I have kept most types of bees and saw them being kept by others and my opinions are based on what I have seen and believe to be true.
Buckfast bees are very docile, so are Italians, Carniolans and Caucasians and crosses between these are usually very docile too. It is only when crossed with AMM ( Black Bee of Western Europe) that they become aggressive.
The first cross or indeed the second cross with Buckfast does not produce an aggressive bee, the AMM fraternity like to claim it does, but that is misleading. From about the third cross the bees will start becoming increasingly aggressive and they will also have become black in colour. They will have retained some hybrid vigour (heterosis) and so we hear of some very productive "AMM" colonies and also hear that "cross" bees are the best honey producers!

 

[Finman]

Kill the aggressive queens, then you have only calm hives. So I do.
.

 

[Swarm]

As you expected, you will receive some biased replies. Some bees are very defensive, there is a youtube video on the forum that shows how bad they can be.
Those bees were certainly not Amm.

 

[TooBee...]

TooBee, you are right to ask questions and to make up your own mind and not to be misled by propaganda (from any source). Over the years I have kept most types of bees and saw them being kept by others and my opinions are based on what I have seen and believe to be true.
Buckfast bees are very docile, so are Italians, Carniolans and Caucasians and crosses between these are usually very docile too. It is only when crossed with AMM ( Black Bee of Western Europe) that they become aggressive.
The first cross or indeed the second cross with Buckfast does not produce an aggressive bee, the AMM fraternity like to claim it does, but that is misleading. From about the third cross the bees will start becoming increasingly aggressive and they will also have become black in colour. They will have retained some hybrid vigour (heterosis) and so we hear of some very productive "AMM" colonies and also hear that "cross" bees are the best honey producers!

That is close to what I have been told, and from my thinking is a good explanation of some of the observations that have been re-told to me - certainly aggressiveness is not unique to one bee strain (I prefer that word over "race" due to racial connotations... yes, I'm being oversensitive).

If the AMM has a tendency (which can be bred out) for aggression, then crossing (especially repeated crossings) with them, would increase the likelihood of this aggression coming to the surface.

Interesting to hear you speak positively about the Buckfast - I have yet to meet face to face a beekeeper here in Ireland that opening supports them ... this is my first proper year of beekeeping: Are there many of us out there?

 

[Quis Custodiet]

TooBee, May one say your non confrontational attitude is commendable. One of the more peculiar aspects of keeping Buckfast bees, is that those who do, will rarely admit to doing so. There have been too many hive burnings, too much harassment and too much intimidation and so the Buckfast beekeeping movement has gone underground and it is thriving. The aggression shown by many misled AMM stalwarts has done more to promote the keeping of Buckfast, than all the promotion and advertising combined.There are Buckfast beekeepers in all Irish counties and why not? Buckfast bees are bred for docility and productivity. AMM bees have many good qualities, but at their best they were not as docile and productive as Buckfasts, they are however great survivors. Incidentally Buckfast are 50% or more AMM.

 

[B+.]

Incidentally Buckfast are 50% or more AMM.

I think we've had this discussion on here before. IIRC, the amount varies depending on the source.

 

[Quis Custodiet]

I think we've had this discussion on here before. IIRC, the amount varies depending on the source.

Fair enough, that sounds quite logical. I was thinking of ex Sherberton in the days of B.A.. The % is as far as I know correct for that source and time, B.A. used French AMM and not those of UK origin

 

[madasafish]

My hives contain bees from Carniolan, Buckfast and AMM strains . Queen rearing using the best queens and open mating has shown about 10% of offspring are aggressive - and are culled **. Open mating means grotty local mongrels will be part of the resulting gene pool.

Like most beekeeping quotations, it's stated without any shred of evidence ...and reality is based on individual circumstances.

** so far.. It will change of course.

 

[Anduril]

Last year I had loads of aggressive hive from mongrel bees, I did a bit of queen rearing and now they are docile. I know many beekeepers who have changed to buckfast, because of their gentler nature. I have had buckfast and haven't had a problem with those becoming aggressive. Wasn't it ITLD who said the same or similar as Quis Custodiet?

 

[B+.]

Last year I had loads of aggressive hive from mongrel bees, I did a bit of queen rearing and now they are docile. I know many beekeepers who have changed to buckfast, because of their gentler nature. I have had buckfast and haven't had a problem with those becoming aggressive. Wasn't it ITLD who said the same or similar as Quis Custodiet?

I don't believe it is as easy, or repeatable, as you suggest. Do you know what bees are kept near you? Their drones will have mated with your virgin queens, so, if you want to locate the source of the improvement, look to the drones.

 

[Anduril]

I don't believe it is as easy, or repeatable, as you suggest. Do you know what bees are kept near you? Their drones will have mated with your virgin queens, so, if you want to locate the source of the improvement, look to the drones.

There are Carnies in the area.

 

[B+.]

There are Carnies in the area.

So, the original queen will account for only 50% of the heritage of the workers, and each drone the queen mated with will account for the other 50%. The drones she produces will receive 100% of their genes from the queen though. That means your improvement may be only temporary

 

[Beefriendly]

Open mating means grotty local mongrels will be part of the resulting gene pool.

This is the crux of the matter.
It's what the colonies are like that produce the drones that has the greatest bearing on the temperament of future generations.

My area has quite vicious local mongrels and my breeding is assumed to be as follows.
1. 1st crosses are from Isolated mated Buckfast queens daughters (100% Buckfast) are crossed x with local drones. No choice there, that is all there is in the immediate area for them to mate with.
2 These colonies (F1's) now have queens that are 100% Buckfast but their offspring are 50% Buckfast and 50% Local. These are fine, placid and great.
. Now if I cross daughters of these F1's again with the local bees in my area the resulting queens are now 50% Buckfast and 50% Local....and their offspring are now 75% local bee ...... and in my area these F2 crosses tend to be a bit naughty. So I try to avoid them.
However if the same crosses were done in an area where the local bees are non aggressive (Teesside springs to mind). Then I don't think you get this aggressive F2 generation, but the bees are reverting back to a mongrel phenotype.


Not sure if that helps OP answer his question but essentially any aggression or non aggression comes from the local bees that produce the drones that your queens mate with in your immediate area.
It's no coincidence that a couple of the local bee keepers have moved several hives close to me to take advantage of the reverse scenario where their bees are getting the benefits of mating with my Buckfast drones.

 

[For want of a better word]

This is the crux of the matter.
Not sure if that helps OP answer his question but essentially any aggression or non aggression comes from the local bees that produce the drones that your queens mate with in your immediate area.

.

Bees local to you... not necessarily the local population of bees.

You may have a beekeeper within your locality with bees that he has imported into the local area with an aggressive trait.
Not to be tolerated, squish that agressive queen and source a calm queen from a local beekeeper who is breeding bees of a decent temperament that are adapted to your local environment.

 

[Anduril]

Bees local to you... not necessarily the local population of bees.

You may have a beekeeper within your locality with bees that he has imported into the local area with an aggressive trait.
Not to be tolerated, squish that agressive queen and source a calm queen from a local beekeeper who is breeding bees of a decent temperament that are adapted to your local environment.

you've got a good sense of humour.

 

[Beefriendly]

Bees local to you... not necessarily the local population of bees.

You may have a beekeeper within your locality with bees that he has imported into the local area with an aggressive trait.

Give it a rest Hoppy...as a mouthpiece for BIBBA you appear to be achieving the very opposite of their aims.....long may it continue.