Convert to 8-frame decision

[omnimirage]

I plan to expand my operation and build many more beehives. I'm developing back problems at too young of an age, and I struggle to lift a full 10 frame honey super. I've also noticed that the bees don't tend to fill the outer frames of a deep, 10 frame super. It's evident to me that deep, 10 frame supers are not optimal for honey production. The use of them seems most suitable for a system involving queen bee excluders, with the deeps being used for the brood chamber. They may be ideal when using queen excluders, but I feel queen excluders are not ideal for anything other than comb production, but I'm really unsure. Investing in deep 10s, the standard, seems none-worthwhile. From what I've been reading, 10 frame seems to be the standard due to how the Langstroth Hive was originally designed, it was arbitrarily made a 10 frame system. Many people seem to be converting towards an 8 frame system. It seems overall, advantageous, on the account of the deep size for 10 frames being too large and inflexible for my tastes.

I note that 10 frame mediums are just about as heavy as 8 frame deeps. I simulated this weight and lifted it, and found it to be quite heavy but manageable, just at my peak. Something to take into consideration, is 8 frame system tends to encourage building upwards, rather than expanding sideways. In Australia, I believe beekeepers often need to transport hives around: it might be easier for me if they weren't as tall when doing so. Furthermore, I have most of my beehives at a good sight (my property) that has a big ant problem: I've needed to put the beehives on a stand to redeem such, my big 10 frame 4 deep beehive might be too tall as an 8 frame hive, and the hive could still grow yet.

Where I live, 10 frames is the standard. I'm interested in building beehives and selling my inventory to the public, so conforming to the 10 frame standard may be better for business. I may be able to find more profitable deals on gumtree, if I'm seeking 10 frames, instead of 8 frames. I already own about 30 supers for 10 frame deeps. I have large ambitions in beekeeping, and if an 8 frame setup is better for me, I'd rather invest in such now, before I'm too committed towards 10 frames.

 

[Tremyfro]

Hi, it's going to be difficult for beekeepers on this forum to help you because it is a forum mainly populated by UK beekeepers. Depending on where you live in Australia...your climate could be very different. If you live in a subtropical area, for instance, you will have year round forage for the bees...something unheard of in the UK. Here our bees go into a cluster during most winters and don't leave the hive ...the temperatures are too cold for any pollen or nectar. Management of the colony is subsequently quite different.
A 10 frame deep is very heavy...does it contain all the brood nest or does the brood nest extend into the next box? I know some beekeepers keep the brood nest in the 10 frame deep and use mediums for honey with a queen excluder between. They regularly take brood out of the deep to weaken the colony a bit but not so much that the small hive beetle can get the upper hand. I believe the idea is to keep the brood box bursting to control the small hive beetle but not so it swarms. Certainly a balancing act I would think. Also, I hear that some beekeepers remove drone brood as the small hive beetle will hide amongst them. Some beekeepers use all mediums but constantly weaken the brood box to contain it in 2 medium brood boxes. Langstroths are heavy about the same as our jumbo national.....generally they would be sufficient for our brood nest. Some of our types of bees occupy a much smaller brood nest so it is difficult to compare.
You might want to talk to some of the successful beekeepers in Australia about your plans as they could advise you much more accurately....especially those that live in a similar climate.

 

[pargyle]

As I see it your personal hive issue is that you have stocks of 10 frame boxes which are too heavy (when filled) for you to lift and you feel that 8 frame would suit you better ?

So ... the easy answer in the short term is to reduce the numbers of frames in your existing boxes to 8 frames and fill the resultant spare space with PIR Insulation (Kingspan/Celotex - not sure what brands you have in Oz) which weighs next to nothing. Seal the cut edges with aluminium tape or the bees will eat into it. You then have all the benefits of keeping your existing boxes and reducing the weight to a manageable level. The bees won't mind as long as you ensure they have space to expand into - indeed, you could run 10 frame brood boxes (as you don't need to lift them very often) and just reduce the supers to 8 frame.

As fo marketing smaller boxes - I would be concerned at trying to introduce another box size into a market where the standard hive size is established. If you think there is a general problem with people lifting 10 frame supers I would think you would be better off marketing purpose made hive reducers made out of PIR then people could follow your lead without having to make their own ! Gotta be a profit margin in it somewhere ...

 

[Tremyfro]

Although here in the UK....taking out frames and substituting insulation is a great idea for making a box lighter.....because they have SHB in OZ it gives the beetles somewhere to hide where the bees can't get to them. You could use a thin piece of plywood to divide the box so you use fewer frames and then seal the joins and back fill with expanding foam...or similar. That might work and the beetles wouldn't be able to hide in there.
I know of beekeepers who have changed to 8 frame boxes. Another way of doing it is to do the same as Jeff Heriot....he carries a few empty boxes and decants the honey frames a few at a time...filling up the boxes on his flatbed lorry.

 

[pargyle]

Although here in the UK....taking out frames and substituting insulation is a great idea for making a box lighter.....because they have SHB in OZ it gives the beetles somewhere to hide where the bees can't get to them. You could use a thin piece of plywood to divide the box so you use fewer frames and then seal the joins and back fill with expanding foam...or similar. That might work and the beetles wouldn't be able to hide in there.
I know of beekeepers who have changed to 8 frame boxes. Another way of doing it is to do the same as Jeff Heriot....he carries a few empty boxes and decants the honey frames a few at a time...filling up the boxes on his flatbed lorry.

Sorry .. have you seen the size of a small hive beetle ? Even the larvae are BIG ... but I would accept that they lay eggs in crevices, but that's not where the larvae stay they migrate to the comb ... eating anything they can find. The answer is to seal the PIR to the internal sides of the hive with aluminium tape - and we are talking supers - so, if there is an SHB infestation the OP should know about it - if he doesn't he's not going to have bees for long - let alone a honey harvest !

http://entnemdept.ufl.edu/creatures...edu/creatures/misc/bees/small_hive_beetle.htm

If you make the insulation material fit the size of the hive (as I do) then there is no space for an SHB to hide anywhere around it ... I don't get a problem in the UK with wax moth in the space around my fillers so I really can't see SHB being an issue.

Indeed, the OP didn't even mention SHB - he was more concerned about ants !

Lastly, have you tried decanting frames into an empty super ? Sounds easy but the reality is much different .. the bees are very quick to realise what you are up to and you end up with bees everywhere - spill a drop of honey and you will have every bee in the hive trying to mop it up. I've been there - much easier to clear the super of bees using a clearer board, whip the roof off, leave the crown board in place, drop the super onto another crown board (who said you can never have enough crownboards) New crown board on top of the hive, roof back on and get the hell out of there !! ...

 

[Tremyfro]

Ha ha ha ha...now I am imagining you running for your life! Valid points...I thought you meant use slabs of ceolotex wrapping the nds with tape. My mistake.

 

[MuswellMetro]

i have a friend who runs jumbo langstroths with deeps as supers and she has made five frame deeps to carry the capped superframes from the deep on the hive to her car, she just decant then from the hive box into a similar size box in the car...repeats the process at home into her extraction room....takes time, yes but not that heavy