Compressing large hive for winter

[spiderplantman]

I have a hive with a really good queen in a 14x12 box who has created a huge load of brood this year. They’ve fully drawn, filled and capped 4 supers and I’m planning on removing all 4 supers at the end of this week and then feeding syrup/fondant in winter rather than leaving them a super of honey (financially I need to recoup some of the cost of this bonkers hobby this year, sorry bees!)

When I take the lid off, every super and the brood box are jam-packed full of bees. So, when I use a clearer board the day before taking the supers off, all these bees are going to be compressed down into the brood box.

May question is, is this going to increase the likelihood of late swarming? Or, should I put an empty super of drawn frames below the clearer board to give them some space? I was thinking of treating with Apiguard after taking the supers off, so I don’t really want a super on. Presumably the 14x12 box will accommodate any ivy flow and the current level of bees (which presumably will be starting to dwindle now)?

A commercial beekeeper round this way is on a Facebook group saying he leaves an empty drawn super on to catch any ivy flow and then treats late with MAQS, but I used some MAQS strips last year and found them a bit harsh (and unpleasant to handle).

 

[Erichalfbee]

I would take two off, spin and put one back while clearing the other two...a bit of a faff, yes, but room for the bees.
I doubt it would increase the likelihood of swarming but just think of what you are doing to the bees....cramming them into a space that is too small for them. Before you take anything off, though, check the stores in the brood. You can't leave them with nothing unless you are feeding straight away. Even then I wouldn't rob them of of every bit of their own honey

 

[Patrick1]

I would be taking the supers off and adding another brood box, they will then at the verry least draw out next years comb, that will get you off to a good start in the spring, the minor problem is they will pack your new brood box with Ivy store a real pain to get rid of in the spring and feeding back is no so easy if they cannot get the water to break it down. Then you can treat if they need it.
This is a little early to shut them down anyway, they could easily fill more supers and treating with Apiguard can be left another month easily.

 

[spiderplantman]

Re: BB stores level: Good point, yes. Hive in question had good BB stores when I checked last week.

I doubt it would increase the likelihood of swarming but just think of what you are doing to the bees....cramming them into a space that is too small for them.

Yea, it was exactly that thought that made me pause for thought and ask this. So, with an extra empty super on, would you still treat? And if ivy flow is good and the bees fill the super to any appreciable amount, would you just nadir this later on?

 

[spiderplantman]

treating with Apiguard can be left another month easily.

Ah, I’m glad you said that. I see a huge amount of posts from various places saying need to be treating by late Aug at most, so feeling the pressure to get the treatments on.

 

[elainemary]

Ah, I’m glad you said that. I see a huge amount of posts from various places saying need to be treating by late Aug at most, so feeling the pressure to get the treatments on.

You do need to start treating by end August. 2 reasons - Apiguard needs an external temperature of 15C to work throughout the process. Also it’s important to protect the winter bees which are made in August and September. These are the bees that will see your colony through winter and support brood rearing in spring. It’s just not worth weakening or losing a colony due to a couple of extra weeks of collecting honey.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

You do need to start treating by end August

No you don't - it all depends on where you are. Most winter bees are made late September/October

 

[user 20297]

You do need to start treating by end August. 2 reasons - Apiguard needs an external temperature of 15C to work throughout the process. Also it’s important to protect the winter bees which are made in August and September. These are the bees that will see your colony through winter and support brood rearing in spring. It’s just not worth weakening or losing a colony due to a couple of extra weeks of collecting honey.

No you don't - it all depends on where you are. Most winter bees are made late September/October

Hmm...., you take two beekeepers and ask them a question......

 

[elainemary]

Hmm...., you take two beekeepers and ask them a question......

My source was a recent blog post from The Apiarist.

 

[Erichalfbee]

it all depends on where you are.

Is the important bit

 

[Erichalfbee]

My source was a recent blog post from The Apiarist.

Who keeps his bees in Scotland

 

[user 20297]

Who keeps his bees in Scotland

That's sorted it out for me then.

 

[elainemary]

Who keeps his bees in Scotland

Guessing his research isn’t based on one location. As JBM mentioned earlier it does depend where you live and also the type of bee you keep. Many of mine have stopped brood rearing mid September.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Guessing his research isn’t based on one location.

Has he done any research on it? By what I can make out much of his blog is just regurgitating what he's read elsewhere or just opinion

 

[spiderplantman]

I’m in Suffolk, so probably have a bit of leeway in mean temperatures for Sept/Oct.

Just back to the sub-question then, is the consensus to leave them with an empty super to fill with whatever ivy-nonsense they like for another 4 or so weeks before removing that and then Apiguard on? I normally do an apiary-wide OA trickle midwinter.

 

[elainemary]

Has he done any research on it? By what I can make out much of his blog is just regurgitating what he's read elsewhere or just opinion

Excerpt from his recent Blog. Not his own research, used to support his overall point about varroa treatment timing & from a good source:

“Doing large scale experiments of Varroa control is time-consuming and subject to the vagaries of the climate (and, as a molecular virologist, beyond me in terms of the resources needed). I have therefore used the well-established BEEHAVE program of colony development (from scientists in the University of Exeter; BEEHAVE | The Model) to model the numbers of developing and adult bees, and the mite numbers in a colony. BEEHAVE by default uses environmental parameters (climate and forage) based upon data from Rothamsted (51.8°N). Using results from this model system, the bees present in the hive at the end of December – by definition the diutinus winter bees – were produced from eggs laid from early/mid August (Figure 4).

Whatever the precise date – and it will vary from season to season as indicated above – at some point in September the adult bee population starts to be entirely replaced with winter bees. Large numbers of these need to live until the following February or March to ensure the colony survives and is able to build up again once the queen starts laying.”

 

[user 20297]

Who keeps his bees in Scotland

I do.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Just back to the sub-question then, is the consensus to leave them with an empty super to fill with whatever ivy-nonsense they like for another 4 or so weeks before removing that and then Apiguard on? I normally do an apiary-wide OA trickle midwinter.

Why would you want to put a super on at all? if you've taken off your crop let the bees backfill the ivy etc' into the brood nest, you can treat whenever you like then.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

from scientists in the University of Exeter; BEEHAVE | The Model) to model the numbers of developing and adult bees,

So an experimental computer simulation, not actual empirical facts.

 

[spiderplantman]

Why would you want to put a super on at all? if you've taken off your crop let the bees backfill the ivy etc' into the brood nest, you can treat whenever you like then.

Well, yes, that's ultimately want I want to do in an ideal scenario, but...

I would take two off, spin and put one back while clearing the other two...a bit of a faff, yes, but room for the bees.

I may have misunderstood, but isn't the inference here that the BB is too small for this amount of bees to go from 4 supers to no supers, at least in the short term?