Colony preparing to swarm

[slangers]

I have a colony which is weak and a real concern for overwintering. It barely fills the brood box at the moment, but has a new, actively laying queen. I am feeding syrup and they have been storing this well on the frames.

Inspected today and there are around 10 queen cells with larvae but not yet sealed. Why would such a weak colony, with a new queen, be looking to swarm so late in the season, especially when they have a rich supply of food? Any suggestions on what I should do? An AS seems like an unlikely tactic to succeed.

 

[itma]

How many frame-sides-worth of fully-drawn but empty cells are available for Q to lay in?

 

[slangers]

3-4

 

[snelgrove]

I have a colony which is weak and a real concern for overwintering. It barely fills the brood box at the moment, but has a new, actively laying queen. I am feeding syrup and they have been storing this well on the frames.

Inspected today and there are around 10 queen cells with larvae but not yet sealed. Why would such a weak colony, with a new queen, be looking to swarm so late in the season, especially when they have a rich supply of food? Any suggestions on what I should do? An AS seems like an unlikely tactic to succeed.

You say it barely fills the brood box, I wouldn't say that this is to weak to overwinter, some of my nucs from this year barely fill the brood box but will overwinter fine with plenty of stores. how many frames of brood is it on ?

 

[slangers]

Only about 3.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

did you see the queen? are you sure they're not emergency cells as she's gone and turned her toes?

 

[slangers]

Didn't see her, but she is still laying so I know she's there.

 

[slangers]

Should I be attempting an AS?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Didn't see her, but she is still laying so I know she's there.

Is she still laying now - or are the eggs you saw just the last she laid before dying/going?

Should I be attempting an AS?

Whatever you do - first find your queen. You could take a chance and knock down the QC's but check again in a few days to see what they're doing, but with that many QC's it looks like they're determined to go so not really much choice.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Find the queen and nuc her.
Wait a week, remove the queen cells and replace the queen and her bees in the nuc.
JBM...might that work ?

 

[itma]

Brood on 3 frames and 10 QCs sounds to me much more like swarming than Emergency.

Not sure how you might have a weak colony but with an "actively laying Queen", that you are feeding syrup to, and yet you still have about two full frames of empty drawn comb that is not being used for syrup/nectar ripening or for brood.
That isn't a situation normally arrived at.

What is the actual configuration of the colony? How much capped and uncapped stores, how much foundation, etc.
I note that you can't find the Queen. Are any of the QCs capped?

ADDED

Why would such a weak colony, with a new queen, be looking to swarm so late in the season, especially when they have a rich supply of food?

A "rich supply of food" is one of the conditions necessary for swarming ...

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Find the queen and nuc her.
Wait a week, remove the queen cells and replace the queen and her bees in the nuc.
JBM...might that work ?

it might - make sure the Q- colony cannot make any more QC's wait a while and re-unite whatever you do at this time of the year is taking a chance

Brood on 3 frames and 10 QCs sounds to me much more like swarming than Emergency.

? how - collected a swarm last year - three or four frames of brood - queen died, three frames plastered with QC's, at least a dozen.

 

[itma]

... {more likely swarm than emergency}
? how - collected a swarm last year - three or four frames of brood - queen died, three frames plastered with QC's, at least a dozen.

Reasoning being that the number of emergency cells that the bees can adequately provision (and thus the number that the bees will make of their own accord) is normally considered to be proportional to the strength of the colony. (Hence the manipulation to make super-sized colonies as cell-raisers for more than one bar of QCs ...) However, bees will be bees, and it might be that, faced with a large proportion of eggs/young larvae plus an excess of food, they have been very ambitious!
However, given that there has been generous feeding, my bet would still be on Q restriction, leading to swarming.

However, the practical question is to the way forward rather than how the situation was created.
Which really depends on the exact state of the colony.
If there are sealed QCs, and no Q to be found ... an AS seems pointless.
And, ummm, if they were Emergency QCs, there wouldn't then be any point in an AS either!

 

[beebot]

However, given that there has been generous feeding, my bet would still be on Q restriction, leading to swarming.

But there was 3-4 frames (post#3) for queen to lay in so would that not give plenty of space?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Sometimes bees just throw us a curve ball - only this year I had a proven good laying queen in a Brood box with plenty of bees and all drawn foundation - not an excessive amount of stores - she swarmed on four frames of brood.
Until I'm told there's still eggs in there, I still think it's a good chance the queens pegged out

 

[itma]

However, given that there has been generous feeding, my bet would still be on Q restriction, leading to swarming.

But there was 3-4 frames (post#3) for queen to lay in so would that not give plenty of space?

Even if there were 3/4 sides of empty, drawn comb in the hive (which, as I said, sounds a bit strange), if it was beyond full stores frames or foundation frames, it wouldn't be properly 'available', and if Q doesn't find it, it might as well not be there. As I said, more detail needed for an understanding of what might have led to this situation.

However, what matters is what to do about things now.
Firstly, is Q there? (Are QCs sealed, are there eggs there, is Q marked and noticeable if there ...)
If she is there, swarming needs to be pre-empted. (For a small colony with a young Q, removing ALL QCs and inserting an empty but drawn comb into the broodnest could be worth trying as an alternative to an AS - specially if the swarming urge was seen to have been caused by broodnest congestion.)
But if Q isn't in residence, then a good QC needs to be preserved and the colony should definitely not be divided (they aren't a big colony to start with).

 

[beebot]

Even if there were 3/4 sides of empty, drawn comb in the hive (which, as I said, sounds a bit strange), if it was beyond full stores frames or foundation frames, it wouldn't be properly 'available', and if Q doesn't find it, it might as well not be there. As I said, more detail needed for an understanding of what might have led to this situation.

However, what matters is what to do about things now.
Firstly, is Q there? (Are QCs sealed, are there eggs there, is Q marked and noticeable if there ...)
If she is there, swarming needs to be pre-empted. (For a small colony with a young Q, removing ALL QCs and inserting an empty but drawn comb into the broodnest could be worth trying as an alternative to an AS - specially if the swarming urge was seen to have been caused by broodnest congestion.)
But if Q isn't in residence, then a good QC needs to be preserved and the colony should definitely not be divided (they aren't a big colony to start with).

What would you view be if there was 3/4 available? Just trying to learn from this scenario rather than questioning your view

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

What would you view be if there was 3/4 available? Just trying to learn from this scenario rather than questioning your view

Some bees will swarm regardless of the amount of space available.

 

[beebot]

Some bees will swarm regardless of the amount of space available.

This is what I find with the local mongrels around my way. You end up with so many colonies due to AS all the time and they keep swarming. Its a real pain. So what can you do apart from by in better (non local) queen. Basically at the point of giving up with locals.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

This is what I find with the local mongrels around my way. You end up with so many colonies due to AS all the time and they keep swarming. Its a real pain. So what can you do apart from by in better (non local) queen. Basically at the point of giving up with locals.

the thing is - especially in your area you don't know what sort of weird and wonderful bees have been brought into the area so 'local' may have loads of carnie or other genes in so not really local any more, and the potential of being more swarmy, but the same, bringing in new queens doesn't have to mean importing them from another country, you just have to look around and see what's available nearby, just getting an open mated queen from a nearby neighbouring area with a more stable population of bees might just do the trick