Clipped queen swarm

[JonnyPicklechin]

Bulging hive that I missed 2 queen cells swarmed. Bees came back, lost clipped queen.

The colony will still have "swarm fever". So I create a second box about 3 feet away and transfer all brood, some food into the box at new site and shake bees in. One queen cell.

At old site, I now have one brood frame with one queen cell, some food and the rest fresh foundation frames.

Will the fact the brood is now moved to the new site, quench the fever? The flyers should have left with the swarm but the fact the brood has gone effectively "switches their logic"...that's the idea, right?

 

[Murox]

It might, or not, they may swarm with the virgin Q. As you have seen they won't swarm without a queen. Your open queen cells both need a good workforce and lots of nutrition to produce a good queen, that means pollen and nectar aplenty.

 

[JonnyPicklechin]

Well noted...So what is the best course of action with a hive housing newly returned swarm brigade after a failed attempt with a clipped queen?

 

[Garry R]

Leave one queen cell - if you cut out both you run the risk that any queen cell you raise subsequently will be from an older egg/larva as the queen usually goes off lay a few days before swarming.

 

[Murox]

As I see it you have basically created two "nucs" of whatever size each with a charged queen cell and you are letting the 'flyers' populate one of them; has that one got enough young bees and stores, or is it a capped queen cell?

 

[Erichalfbee]

queen usually goes off lay a few days before swarming.

Not in my experience. I’ve found plenty of eggs in a swarmed colony.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Not in my experience. I’ve found plenty of eggs in a swarmed colony.

 

[JonnyPicklechin]

As I see it you have basically created two "nucs" of whatever size each with a charged queen cell and you are letting the 'flyers' populate one of them; has that one got enough young bees and stores, or is it a capped queen cell?

Not sure I understand your "or" question. The one in the original site which obviously has the flyers coming back, has bees and stores plus a QC.

This seems odd I cannot get a common response. Isn't a lost clipped a queen common occurrence? Clipping the queen ensures not losing the flying bees who would normally leave in a swarm.

I'm just after learning a common procedure really...

What do the experts say?

 

[Antipodes]

Not sure I understand your "or" question. The one in the original site which obviously has the flyers coming back, has bees and stores plus a QC.

This seems odd I cannot get a common response. Isn't a lost clipped a queen common occurrence? Clipping the queen ensures not losing the flying bees who would normally leave in a swarm.

I'm just after learning a common procedure really...

What do the experts say?

I assume you are talking about a capped queen cell or cells aren't you? Murox was asking that question (was it a capped cell?) which you haven't answered.

 

[Sutty]

Well if it was a "normal" a/s you would put the queen on one or two frames in the original site plus some stores and frames - so that gets the queen and the flyers.
The other gets a queen cell and the rest of the brood.
The only thing different is surely that the original site gets a sealed (or about to be) QC rather than the queen.
You may need to check for EQCs.
Or am I oversimplifying?

 

[JonnyPicklechin]

I assume you are talking about a capped queen cell or cells aren't you? Murox was asking that question (was it a capped cell?) which you haven't answered.

It was uncapped

 

[JonnyPicklechin]

Well if it was a "normal" a/s you would put the queen on one or two frames in the original site plus some stores and frames - so that gets the queen and the flyers.
The other gets a queen cell and the rest of the brood.
The only thing different is surely that the original site gets a sealed (or about to be) QC rather than the queen.
You may need to check for EQCs.
Or am I oversimplifying?

This is what I've done.

 

[drex]

You shook the bees into the box at the new site. At the old site you had one frame of brood plus an open queen cell. The flying bees will return here. There will be no nurse bees, so the potential virgin queen larva will not be well fed. Undersized queen will be the result.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Wouldn’t it have been better to split the brood with a third of it at the old site with the flyers?

 

[Sutty]

You shook the bees into the box at the new site. At the old site you had one frame of brood plus an open queen cell. The flying bees will return here. There will be no nurse bees, so the potential virgin queen larva will not be well fed. Undersized queen will be the result.

If it's a sealed QC it won't matter.

 

[Murox]

It was uncapped

I think you have probably got enough answers to see . The uncapped Q cell needs attention from younger bees rather than older flying ones. Take note of erichalfbee,s comments.

 

[JonnyPicklechin]

Thanks all - In future I'll use a selected sealed QC and leave a frame of food plus 2 to 3 brood frames in the original site and then move all the other brood frames and food into the Nuc/box on the new site with a QC in whatever form.

What could possibly go wrong...

 

[Murox]

Trust in Yhprum's law: "Everything that can work, will work."

 

[Antipodes]

Thanks all - In future I'll use a selected sealed QC and leave a frame of food plus 2 to 3 brood frames in the original site and then move all the other brood frames and food into the Nuc/box on the new site with a QC in whatever form.

What could possibly go wrong...

Please report back in due course as to how it went and include photos of any queens. Thanks!

 

[jeff33]

Sorry if it has been covered in the other 19 responses but I don't see the logic in what you have done. You either split equally in 2 nucs or hives with 1 QC in each or you leave them in the same hive and leave only 1 Qc (opened one) and come back in another 4 days to remove any new ones they have made. If the former you probably would need to move them to a new apiary to keep the 2 halves balanced.

The 2 problems you have to grapple with are:
- continue with this line of bees and being pretty early in the season (considering the poor weather we are having) for virgins to succesfully mate. I can see you have 20 hives so you could potentially draw the process a bit longer by removing all Qcs and going back in a few more days to remove any new ones. When they are hopelessly queenless you could add a frame of BIAS from one of your other colony, preferably one that didn't swarm last year or are gentle. That will take you to the start of May by the time a virgin emerges and by which time swarming fever will have passed and weather may have improved to increase mating chances.