Cleaning and Sterilizing Brood Frames

[dano41]

re you sure you're not confusing caustic soda with washing soda?
only an idiot would boil caustic soda

You’ve never heard of anyone boiling frames in caustic soda/lye and you’ve posted on here for years

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

You’ve never heard of anyone boiling frames in caustic soda/lye and you’ve posted on here for years

well, there are a few idiots on here

 

[Gilberdyke John]

re you sure you're not confusing caustic soda with washing soda?
only an idiot would boil caustic soda

Amen to that. Maybe the idiots could try immersing one hand in washing soda and the other in caustic soda? It would be an unforgettable experience and unlikely to need repetition. Prosthetic limbs are very sophisticated nowadays.

 

[Gilberdyke John]

do not mix soda and bleach, an SBI told me it turns to some nice gas and all the good chemical (bad stuff that does cleaning) goes up in the gas. You must first do Soda and then bleach. Personally i boil frames in soda crystal water, but please do not mix in bleach.

Google produced a 2006 post about sodium carbonate and sodium hypochlorite. I'm not sure how slowly the decomposition will proceed but a mix of washing soda and bleach has long been favoured for cleaning hive tools and gloves in the apiary.
Quote - A water solution of sodium hypochlorite will decompose sodium carbonate slowly under atmospheric pressure. If the O- radical and CO2 leave the vessel reaction shifts to the right and sodium chloride is formed. In a tightly closed flask the reaction will slightly proceed and only and increase of pressure will be observed.

 

[polymath]

Google produced a 2006 post about sodium carbonate and sodium hypochlorite. I'm not sure how slowly the decomposition will proceed but a mix of washing soda and bleach has long been favoured for cleaning hive tools and gloves in the apiary.
Quote - A water solution of sodium hypochlorite will decompose sodium carbonate slowly under atmospheric pressure. If the O- radical and CO2 leave the vessel reaction shifts to the right and sodium chloride is formed. In a tightly closed flask the reaction will slightly proceed and only and increase of pressure will be observed.

You should never mix bleach with other cleaning products. You could end up producing poisonous chlorine gas.
https://experthometips.com/soda-cry...f you mix,up producing poisonous chlorine gas.

 

[Arfermo]

Are you washing your Burka as well?

A Burka really won't suit him but he can but try I suppose

 

[Curly green finger's]

A Burka really won't suit him but he can but try I supposeView attachment 29718

You lot are worse than children.

 

[Arfermo]

Are you washing your Burka as well?

Burka won't suit you.

 

[Newbeeneil]

Burka won't suit you.

I don’t know…… a bit of mesh sewn across the eyes and you have a great beesuit.

 

[Into the lions den]

Used both Washing and caustic sodas in a blend up until a couple of years ago. Now use washing soda only.

A boil in that is SO much quicker and more effective at cleaning frames than hand scraping, taking off all wax and propolis. The absence of caustic means we are not sterilising against afb spores...but then we have seen 9 cases in about 120000 hive/seasons..seemingly all externally acquired as it is in only two distinct remote areas we find it, not even once in the core area. Seemed to do disproportionate damage to the equipment relative to the risk. Washing soda alone fine against possible efb transmission.

One plastics and poly until this year we used Sodium hypochlorite solution...immersion and scrubbing..but the smell was not enjoyed by the staff. We now use Virkon S for this task, which though relatively expensive, the cost per unit done is minor and my people are happier. It also lasts longer in the tank...the hypochlorite lost its strength after a day or two in summer.

Caustic is indeed dangerous stuff......unpleasant to work with, overkill in most situations, damages the equipment as it corrodes the nails and softens the wood. Also strips the paint from the boxes.
Risk tiny..damage big...staff risk significant. Cut from our methods.

Also had one (still alive thank heavens) idiot who decided to make the caustic solution by takin the pearls into the container first..utterly against instruction...then run the tap into the bulk. Ruddy thing went up like Vesuvius and filled the building with a caustic cloud. White caustic dust on all surfaces including the ceiling...was a major cleaning job.

 

[dano41]

Itld thank you very much for taking the time to reply very helpful.Can I just ask what strength is the washing soda mix and for how long do you dip?

 

[Finman]

I sterilise super frames in boiling washing soda and bleach dip. But I wouldnt bother with brood frames - just not worth the effort or risk. They don't clean up welI compared to super frames and I also discovered that you don't get a lot of useable wax from them either - so now I burn the lot; frames & wax.

Brood frames will be like new when you boil them in the 3- 5% lye water. Important is that do not break eites.

Hot water melts wax and propolis.
Lye turns wax into soap and soap goes into water. Otherwise wax would float on dirface.

If the soup makes foam on surface, add lye

NaOH = LYE = Caustic soda.

Finnish beekeepers learned the method from Denmark.

Mad idea to put 25% washing soda, if I have 60 litre cooking container.. 5% lye is surely enough.

If you pour on yourself 60 litre boiling soda water, or pure boiling water, is is ad harmfull as lye water. So, do not pour.

 

[Finman]

You’ve never heard of anyone boiling frames in caustic soda/lye and you’ve posted on here for years

It is usual method in Denmark and in Finland.

I have recommended very many times lye handling in this forum.

 

[Curly green finger's]

I don’t know…… a bit of mesh sewn across the eyes and you have a great beesuit.

If I'd of wrote a comment like that I would of been hampered for racism.
No offence.
She has lovely looking eyes and probably a smart woman

 

[Into the lions den]

Itld thank you very much for taking the time to reply very helpful.Can I just ask what strength is the washing soda mix and for how long do you dip?

5% for this as well but it can be approximate. It cleans frames very effectively at half that. We have a 300 litre tank (was our honey mixing tank until the late 90's)...filled about 80% full...so about 240kg of water. Add in half of a 25kg sack of sodium carbonate. Have two very big gas burners under it....light and bring to the boil...which dissolves and circulates the soda without other methods.

Frames bundled in 10s..or thereabouts...and put in at one end of the tank once solution is boiling. These are just frames after the combs have been cut out to go into the wax melter..so have wax nd propolis still on them. Every 3 mins or so add another bundle...and after about 5 or 6 minutes pull the bundle out from the other end, quick clear off with the pressure washer...and allow to dry. Its great when using prewired frames as the wires are undisturbed unless you were a bit heavy handed during the cut out stage.....so can virtually go straight for rewaxing once dry.

So one person can boil a boxful every 3 or 4 minutes this way...probably allow 10 if just doing one bundle at a time. You get about 100 boxfuls through before it gets too soupy and you need to run it off and refill. In practice we only run one tank a day but COULD do two.....if other people did the bundling and restacking.

Will post a few pics...technology permitting.

1. The rather vile tank...as it was left on Friday
.
2. Bundled ready for going in on Monday

3. Ones boiled on Thursday or Friday

4. 2 Days stack drying before palletising or boxing.

5. End result after waxing......bundled ready to go into boxes when needed.

All the above done from 30th to 31st Dec.

And these old frames, despite their rather grey look, result in clean looking colonies....the below were part of a shook swarm experiment in late October...referred to on twitter threads. No extraneous material on the wood. Links with other themes I refer to on twitter.....the comb shown is the very top one in the box with bees....drawn like this some time between last days of Oct and 15th Nov. Crosses between threads and themes I know...but note the total lack of drone cells on these very late drawn combs.
.
Hive pics taken yesterday...NYD 1/1/22

 

[Into the lions den]

Apologies for the rather long post....have a new computer just set up and experimenting with it...hence so many pics..not been able to post my mobile phone pics here until now.....but means I can show as well as tell.

Only reacted to a post that came up...did not notice it was in the beginners section.....maybe all the above is not especially appropriate for that. (Moderators: Please delete or move if thought correct to do so.)

 

[mbc]

I've always thought beekeeping is a bit back to front in this country, commercial beekeeping often results from an overgrown amateur hobby and carries forward practices from that, whereas what should occur is the efficiencies from well thought out commercial operations should be taken up by the amateur section to make it more enjoyable, cost effective and time expedient.
Thanks for sharing from the more efficient side itld.

 

[pete darbyshire]

Amen to that. Maybe the idiots could try immersing one hand in washing soda and the other in caustic soda? It would be an unforgettable experience and unlikely to need repetition. Prosthetic limbs are very sophisticated nowadays.

Agreed. I still use the old heated pot sink with hot sodium carbonate. No way would I use hot sodium hydroxide, I would consider that dangerous. I add vinegar to the rinse water (left sink) to neutralise the alkalinity.

 

[dano41]

Finman thank you for reply.Itld thank you for clarifying the whole process.It’s also good to know that “Washing soda alone fine against possible efb transmission”

 

[Newbeeneil]

If I'd of wrote a comment like that I would of been hampered for racism.
No offence.
She has lovely looking eyes and probably a smart woman

Good job you didn’t write that then?