Catching bees

[Ben Smith]

Hello
I am a keen, new start, beekeeper keen to get some bees this year.
I had a lot of honey bees (in their hundreds) visiting my garden last year and was hoping to catch some free bees this year. I was wondering what my chances of success would be if I used my brand new 14 x 12 cedar hive as a bait hive. Bearing in mind I have no frames of drawn out comb.
I am basically looking for answers to the following:
1. What are my chances using the 14 X 12 brood box with a roof.
2. What should I put in it (i.e. how many frames, how much foundation, what type of lure).
3. Where should I locate it?

Thanks for any help/advice you can offer.

Regards

Ben

 

[davnig]

Hello
1. What are my chances using the 14 X 12 brood box with a roof.
2. What should I put in it (i.e. how many frames, how much foundation, what type of lure).
3. Where should I locate it?

1 I got one last year in a 14x12 box, it's about the right size as defined by Seeley I think - make sure the entrance is reduced

2. old brood comb is best but beeswax will help, lemon balm, lemon grass oil are all said to help

3. facing s to se, off the ground, top of a shed etc, mine got one last year on a normal stand having said that

good luck, all depends on having 'bad' (kidding!) beekeepers near to your site

 

[enrico]

If you have thousands of bees in the garden sounds like you will be getting your neighbours swarm! Good luck. Three drops of lemon grass oil on top of a frame. Just because you have a hive full of bees in the day doesn't mean you have a Swarm, always check again after dark!
E

 

[Chris B]

Realistically your chances are slim without drawn comb.
Certainly < 50%
Probably < 20%

Add some drawn comb and it will be > 50%

(Nothing too scientific in these figures, just gut feel based on years accidentally catching swarms in piles of unused kit - only once ever did a swarm arrive anywhere that didn't have drawn comb, in a feeder in fact).

 

[rosco]

Interesting observations, Chris B. Do one's chances increase with more frames of drawn comb?

Edit: appreciate this is not easy to answer! Just looking for tips.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

 

[curry756]

As your new to this, I'd recommend getting some bees through your local association. You want to know what your getting. You want well behaved and a young queen from a proven well behaved colony.

Swarm bees, from what I have read, will be harder work. Higher tendency to swarm (ironically), may be aggressive and unknown queen age.

I am only new myself though, but just thought i'd comment.

 

[Ben Smith]

Thanks Davnig
When you say bees wax will frames of foundation do the trick?

 

[Ben Smith]

Thanks for the speedy responses!
So it looks as though if I want to increase my chances of success then I should add some drawn brood comb (I will have to see if I can borrow some). Is it something that regular keepers are likely to have a surplus of? Is one frame of drawn comb sufficient?
Assuming I cannot get the drawn comb, do I just fill the whole brood box with frames of foundation? Or should I put say 6 frames in and a dummy board?
How long does the three drops of lemon grass last before it needs to be topped up?

 

[Ben Smith]

If you have thousands of bees in the garden sounds like you will be getting your neighbours swarm! Good luck. Three drops of lemon grass oil on top of a frame. Just because you have a hive full of bees in the day doesn't mean you have a Swarm, always check again after dark!
E

Thanks enrico good tip!

 

[Chris B]

Interesting observations, Chris B. Do one's chances increase with more frames of drawn comb?

Not sure to be honest. But last year for example I had swarms in 2 stacks of supers that were all drawn comb.

 

[itma]

The box being "brand new" is actually another disadvantage.
Bees like places that have been used before by bees.

A 14x12 box is actually a bit big for Seeley's "40 litres" target.
A standard National brood multiplies out as being a touch small, but a little crownboard beespace plus the typical deep space in the floor brings it up to very close indeed to the 40 litres.
So, a block of Celotex in the back of the 14x12 (to reduce its volume by a couple of frames) wouldn't hurt.

Frames & foundation won't attract bees.
But they will make life tolerable for you after a swarm has moved in!

Old comb.
In spring, many beekeepers should be renewing their colonies' comb. So they should have some old frames & comb to toss in your direction.
Many people would want nothing to do with manky old bits (which is why they are being swapped out). Even the meanest beekeeper wants healthy bees.
Another problem with old comb is that it also attracts Wax Moth (which turns it to dust).
So, having begged some rubbish from a friendly association member, your first thing to do is wrap it in cling film and put it in the freezer for a couple of days (to kill any existing Moth eggs, larvae, etc). Then spray it (again try begging) with dilute "Certan" (aka B401 or B. thuringiniensis) which is a bacteria that acts as a biological caterpillar control. Certan is sold for Wax Moth, a different trade name (maybe a non-identical bacteria?) is sold for spraying on cabbages.
Anyway, after spraying and drying, your old comb should be proof against Wax Moth for several months.
But being nasty old comb, you are going to get it out asap after the bees arrive. And for that reason, the old comb does not have to be on a 14x12 frame. Even a Smith frame would do.



Note that your hive, as well as a brood box and roof, needs a floor and a "cover board". I'd strongly recommend also having a thin, flat "dummy board". All of which involve pretty simple non-critical carpentry.
However, you are also going to need some sort of a feeder - to be brought into play a couple of days after the swarm arrives. Most cheap feeders go on top of the crown/feeder board and need some sort of a box to surround them. A shallow "super" box is commonly employed for this job. Hopefully, you will soon have a better job for it!


By all means try and lure-in a swarm, but do also put your name down on your association's swarm list. And see who comes up with bees first!

 

[Ben Smith]

Wow! What a thorough and informative reply itma.
Thank you for the detail in dealing with wax moth.
Yes my hive has a mesh floor with an insert that can be drawn out as needed. I also have a crown board and feeder for liquid feed (although the feeder is not fitted yet).
Would you feed the bees with syrup or fondant once they move in?

I have my name down on the associations swarm list but I thought I may as well try and catch some freebies whilst I wait. Nothing ventured noting gained so to speak.
Thanks for the help.

 

[Dusty Rhodes]

I think you'll find, Ben, that itma is a reliable source of wisdom.

Dusty.

(Note to itma: I think you have my account details.)

 

[itma]

... I also have a crown board and feeder for liquid feed (although the feeder is not fitted yet).
Would you feed the bees with syrup or fondant once they move in?
...

Check you understand how you are going to use the feeder. And make any marks that would help things to line up easily when bees are trying to distract you.

Don't feed for the first two (conventionally three) days - so they use up any (potentially contaminated) honey they would be carrying.
Then feed 1:1 syrup. As much as they will take until they have drawn out (ideally, if the swarm is big enough) all the frames in the box.
The game is to prevent the feeder ever running dry at that stage. Once they drop out of "swarm comb-drawing" mode, they don't go back into it, and getting the rest of the box drawn will be much harder.
So keep the feeder topped up after you start feeding ...

Oh, and "1:1" - really that should be imperial, pounds and pints. Metric works out stronger, and you don't need that at this point.

 

[itma]

I think you'll find, Ben, that itma is sometimes a mostly reliable source of wisdom.

Dusty.

Fixed that for you!

(Note to itma: I think you have my account details.)

My soul may be cheap, but its not quite that cheap!
Nevertheless, delighted to buy you the odd pint when you are next passing through the Garden of England.

 

[Chrisfnvs]

I think more importantly used boxes or comb, i had two swarms in stacks of empty brood/ super boxes last year and one the previous year, they built comb on the underside of the roofs, so maybe smell of the previous occupants is an important fracture.

 

[Tomo]

I agree with Curry756, this is my first year as a beekeeper, and I was advised to join the local bee club (have you attended a basic course? Good idea before jumping in at the deep end), from where I managed to get a colony of over-wintered bees of known provenance, with a known happy temperament, and a known queen. They are also healthy.
Saying that; friends on the same basic course as us last year had a swarm, and have had great results.
I get the impression it's down to a bit of luck as to what you get. Be careful that you check for colony health asap. Once you have other healthy colonies it is a wise idea to have somewhere you can use as a quarantine apiary.Good luck, let us know how you get on.

 

[Ben Smith]

Check you understand how you are going to use the feeder. And make any marks that would help things to line up easily when bees are trying to distract you.

Thanks again itma.
I have Miller type feeders so lining up should not be too much of a problem.
Thanks for clarifying the feeding regime - most useful.

I have noticed that some Miller type feeders I have seen on the net have wire mesh of the entry and feeding gallery. I assume this is to stop bees drowning if you are not using a crown board atop the feeder?
Is this common practice/a good idea?

 

[Ben Smith]

I agree with Curry756, this is my first year as a beekeeper, and I was advised to join the local bee club (have you attended a basic course? Good idea before jumping in at the deep end), from where I managed to get a colony of over-wintered bees of known provenance, with a known happy temperament, and a known queen. They are also healthy.

Yes I am in a local club and have attended the beginner's course. I am also down on their list for swarms. I am also purchasing some bees for a second hive I have prepared and these will be from a known source and bred for good temperament. If I manage to catch an unruly swarm then I would be looking to re-queen.

 

[Ben Smith]

I think more importantly used boxes or comb, i had two swarms in stacks of empty brood/ super boxes last year and one the previous year, they built comb on the underside of the roofs, so maybe smell of the previous occupants is an important fracture.

Thanks
I do have an old crown board which I have scraped and scorched.
I could use that on my new hive perhaps to increase my odds slightly?