Can I keep bees without taking the honey?

[Chris Luck]

Infecting each others hives with what nottingham?

Chris

 

[Chris Luck]

So Reuben, the answer is that in your situation it's a big NO....

...but in a different location where you were free to do what you want the answer is a big YES, in fact if the bees were left with all their own supplies they may well do better, certainly late winter / early spring starvation shouldn't be a problem.

Studies in France have shown no substantial difference in colony life between treated and untreated colonies with an average life of 7.9 years with some colonies still going strong 15 years since the start of the controlled study.

Of course if people go down the route of killing queens and replacing them with new ones this would alter the situation but the question is, when is a colony the same colony as it is effectively continually renewing itself one way or another.

Chris

 

[nottingham]

Infecting each others hives with what nottingham?

Chris

Are you trying to say that France is the "New Australia" and France doesn't have a problem with Varroa? or any other honeybee related problems?

 

[Chris Luck]

Are you trying to say that France is the "New Australia" and France doesn't have a problem with Varroa? or any other honeybee related problems?

What I'm saying quite clearly is that these "issues" are exaggerated and over stated which all seems to be part of the way people think or have been led to think these days.

I really don't know whether it's that only shocking bad news is of interest and therefore journalists and gravy trainers leap on board and everyone else is silenced but things simply aren't that bad AND untreated colonies do survive perfectly well.

Bees in a natural state swarm, most will swarm every year. Now it really doesn't take a genius to work out that if they all survived there wouldn't be any room left on the Planet for anything else. (2x2=4, 2x4=8, 2x8=16, 2x16=32 and so on).

Take Blackbirds which can produce 12 / 15 young a year because there is a high death rate, naturally this would be the same for bees - what's new? Survival of the fittest, Darwin and all that.

Chris

Chris

 

[nottingham]

Take Blackbirds which can produce 12 / 15 young a year because there is a high death rate, naturally this would be the same for bees - what's new? Survival of the fittest, Darwin and all that.

Chris

You have proved my point. If bird keepers kept Blackbirds the high death rate of Blackbirds would go down.

 

[Chris Luck]

Why not address the main point nottingham? After all you asked the question.

Are you trying to say that France is the "New Australia" and France doesn't have a problem with Varroa? or any other honeybee related problems?

I repeat..

What I'm saying quite clearly is that these "issues" are exaggerated and over stated which all seems to be part of the way people think or have been led to think these days.

I really don't know whether it's that only shocking bad news is of interest and therefore journalists and gravy trainers leap on board and everyone else is silenced but things simply aren't that bad AND untreated colonies do survive perfectly well.

Bees in a natural state swarm, most will swarm every year. Now it really doesn't take a genius to work out that if they all survived there wouldn't be any room left on the Planet for anything else. (2x2=4, 2x4=8, 2x8=16, 2x16=32 and so on).

Chris

 

[For want of a better word]

You have proved my point. If bird keepers kept Blackbirds the high death rate of Blackbirds would go down.

Not if the Beast of the TAMAR got to em first !!!!

Cats eat blackbirds.....................

 

[For want of a better word]

Not if the Beast of the TAMAR got to em first !!!!

Cats eat blackbirds.....................

Got that wrong... its Terror of the Tamar ( from the Tales of Fang and the Cremyl Ferry BBC Radio Devon)

Its the BEAST of Bodmin Moor........... !

 

[Poly Hive]

The three year "thing" is wrong actually because if we are discussing Varroa with out actually mentioning the word it is four years, and is pretty well documented as reality.

Certainly the scientists in Germany thought it was so when I was over there on a training trip. When I challenged them on numbers they chillingly said, and imagine the accent in your head, "we kill the bees and mites and count the mites." Hmm...

PH

 

[nottingham]

Why not address the main point nottingham? After all you asked the question.



I repeat..

What I'm saying quite clearly is that these "issues" are exaggerated and over stated which all seems to be part of the way people think or have been led to think these days.

I really don't know whether it's that only shocking bad news is of interest and therefore journalists and gravy trainers leap on board and everyone else is silenced but things simply aren't that bad AND untreated colonies do survive perfectly well.

Bees in a natural state swarm, most will swarm every year. Now it really doesn't take a genius to work out that if they all survived there wouldn't be any room left on the Planet for anything else. (2x2=4, 2x4=8, 2x8=16, 2x16=32 and so on).

Chris

I understand that journalists make the problem look bigger than it really is but you suggested that if there were no beekeeping the population of honey bees would go up and that bee related infections would not become a problem.

In some ways what you are saying is true but only in the short term. Here in Briton the English oak is under threat from an infection found at it's roots and UK Scientists have found that they have to change the PH level of the soil to save them. The sad truth is that humans have made so many changes to our planet that it had had a knock on affect for every living thing.

I admire your way of thinking that honey bees could be left to go wild without any help from the beekeeper but this could only happen in small cases and in small parts of the world. Man has made to many changes for every honey bee colony to simply live in some kind of a wild state.

 

[Chris Luck]

Not in France..

The percentage of initial colonies surviving after the 7 year period was not statistically different between VSB (45.1%) and treated control colonies (56.5%) (χ2 = 0.70, P = 0.40).
In the first group of VSB colonies, 5 of the 12 original colonies survived more than 11 years without treatment and the average survival was 9.8 ± 0.7 years (mean ± SE).
In the second group of colonies, the average survival of the VSB colonies was 6.54 ± 0.25 years and 5.86 ± 0.21 years in western France (n = 30) and in Avignon (n = 52), respectively. The average survival of the treated colonies was 6.63 ± 0.3 years and 6.78 ± 0.2 in western France (n = 30) and in Avignon (n = 55), respectively. The survival times are minimum values and minimum estimates as experimental colonies were still alive in 2006 and survival times of the colonies before monitoring was not included.

http://www.prodinra.inra.fr/prodinra/pinra/data/2009/12/PROD20097b481c6_20091209115710014.pdf

Chris

 

[fredbloggs]

Hello Reub

If you are still there and not taken refuge under a cloche on your plot, you would be forgiven for thinking you might have chosen the wrong place to ask such a question? Not so!

Whilst picking up my daughtet from school this afternoon, i noticed that a mud bank near the playground was alive with foraging "bees" i counted at least 6 different types.Not one a honey or even a bumble?

If you want the polination and the interest and are not concerned with gaining a harvest, bumbles and solitarys could be the way to go?

Check out this thread which addresses the subject and gives some links

Good Luck!

Regards

Fred

Ps one day i will suss how to paste links to other threads (using an iphone )
In the meantime look on the diy construction forum for a thread instigated by Apache on this very subject!!

 

[Nellie]

Yes, I think I did mention that this clearly is an issue with allotments and back yards in the UK.

There were however several erroneous posts as I'm sure you noticed, such as the usual clap trap about bees not being able to survive more than 3 years without a human to look after them and to be absolutely correct, (once again), varroa is not a disease and doesn't in itself kill bees to any extent, maybe a few larvae.

I like my bees to behave as nature intended as far as is possible and that includes swarming, hence I have a place in the countryside with my own land where I don't have to listen to moaning minnies.

Chris

Chris,

It's not just about the UK, but unlike France we are relatively heavily populated so the opportunities to stick a hive in the middle of nowhere and have no impact on anyone else is limited.

I was posting on a phone before and yes, I acknowledge the Varroa isn't, of itself a disease, and this forum is not edit friendly so mea culpa. On reflection, especially at this time of year I'm far more concerned about Nosema (and we can engage in semantic arguments over whether it's a disease or not too).

As for feral colonies, I'm sure there are those out there proliferating just fine without our help in the same way that despite reports to the contrary beekeeping and bee colonies in the UK generally are booming right now.

As for your last point; believe it or not, me too. I just don't have the option right now to up sticks and move to the empty paradise of the french country side so I keep my bees on an allotment in the middle of a city so I perhaps have a vested interest in not encouraging people (and this is not aimed at reub) who like the idea of bees but not the responsibility of keeping them in a densely populated area.

 

[Monsieur Abeille]

and an end to sweeping statements about disease and pests, most of which, like all sweeping statements are erroneous anyway.


Chris

thats a bit of a sweeping statement ....

 

[Chris Luck]

OK, OK, OK...as long as we can start to agree that Bee colonies can and do live with varroa for as long as 15 years+ with no treatment, it would be really great to get that little one sorted.

Chris

 

[greatbritishhoney]

OK, OK, OK...as long as we can start to agree that Bee colonies can and do live with varroa for as long as 15 years+ with no treatment, it would be really great to get that little one sorted.

Chris

The whole treat/don't treat argument with varroa is a very interesting one. I don't doubt that the real way forward is to allow bees to evolve some significant natural resistance. However, the logistics of doing this in the UK is very challenging - trying to get a bunch of amateur beekeepers (which is essentially what most of us are) all to agree to do the same thing (i.e not treat) and accept the resultant colony losses.
And real resistance can take years, decades, centuries to come about. Varroa will continue to evolve and adapt just as the bees do.

 

[BobH1]

Varroa will continue to evolve and adapt just as the bees do.

I'm sure I've read somewhere that Varroa is evolving to be less "aggressive" - it doesn't do its own survival any good to wipe out its host.