Can bees manage themselves

[rolande]

I'm astounded that there's an idea that beekeepers have been sat with their heads in the sand for the last 30 years. There really hasn't been a lack of effort from the bee community to investigate this stuff. Seeley, with his wild population has written and spoken on the subject, the USDA recognized the potential with the introduction of the Primorski bee to the US gene pool; then we have gutsy commercial beekeepers like the Weavers and John Kefuss putting their business on the line with a live/let die approach. So many others have done similar. There's absolutely *no* lack of research into the overall subject.

 

[Boston Bees]

 

[Erichalfbee]

That's not a peer reviewed scientific paper, as well you know.

Ouch! Sorry !

 

[Worker bee]

As a new bee keeper, looking at the equipment required, chemicals, feed, requeening, winter insulation, managing honey, hives etc
I was wondering can a colony quite happily look after itself in, say a national hive without any human interaction and survive for a number of years?

I get told of people keeping bees treatment free for years without I'll effects. Do I believe them? Not a whole apiary no. No ill effects? No I don't believe them. Try getting nits and not treating it for a month and tell me you have no ill effects. Bees get varroa all bees an I'd like to bet it doesn't feel too good. Will they suffer? Yes. Will they die out? Probably. And they will swarm more and probably abscond too

 

[Worker bee]

A treatment costs less than a jar of honey anyway

 

[Worker bee]

I have bees and I know for a fact they throw the mites off each other. They clean each other but every brood cycle I get thousands to replace them. I treat my dog for fleas and treat my bees for varroa. Its a case of responsibility for your stock. I want my stock to be healthy and happy. If that costs me 20 quid a hive per year its an investment. But it doesn't cost me 20 quid

 

[hemo]

Could you explain what a sugar roll is please?

A simple process of rolling a cup of bees with a t spoon of sugar to assess mite load at any one time. One can simply devise up their own way of carrying it out or buy a cheap kit to do it from Abelo for about £15.

P.s.
As Philip/Pargyle has mentioned further down the the sugar dusting needs to be icing sugar as I have omitted the important word 'icing'.

 

[Swn58]

Hive type: lot of debate here: the issue with Nationals isn't so much insulation, as mould. Bees can keep a small well insulated cavity warm which suppresses mould, but a large hive may need a mesh floor to keep humidity down, so the bees need to gather significantly more fuel to keep warm - an extra stressor.
- Propolis is antiseptic and antifungal, but some beekeepers remove it
- Natural comb, rather than foundation, seems to help.

Bear in mind too that when people claim their colonies last longer than natural ones, they are probably requeening regularly, so it's not the same colony.

You will get less honey than a highly managed hive.

Interesting....especially on the propolis. Mould suppression by having a mesh floor? Surely, ventilation from above is better, as mould is caused by liquid not being able to escape upwards.....as in condensation? Just a thought...

 

[BaconWizard]

Actually ...
1. A mesh floor does not reduce the heat in the hive (I spent a couple of years measuring temperature and humidity in my hives - the temperature within a couple of centimetres of the mesh floor climbs to well above the ambient temperature outside. The key is to have insulation above the crown board and to have no gaps, holes or crevices at the top of the hive.

That being the case, would you say the entrance size (assuming a bottom entrance) is not very important for hive temperature?

 

[BaconWizard]

Interesting....especially on the propolis. Mould suppression by having a mesh floor? Surely, ventilation from above is better, as mould is caused by liquid not being able to escape upwards.....as in condensation? Just a thought...

I found this of interest


There were some follow-up studies in progress, but I haven't been able to find out anything about them yet. Could still be running and unpublished.

 

[pargyle]

That being the case, would you say the entrance size (assuming a bottom entrance) is not very important for hive temperature?

The bees will usually decide what size entrance they require ... if they don't like it they will do everything possible to change it. To be honest I tend to keep my entrances fairly small all year round - the Paynes standard entrance block has a 3" wide 2 bee height position and that's what I use all the time - the bees seem to think it works for them.

The ideal bee hive entrance is, in my opinion, a periscope - with the entry to the hive at the top but the bees enter at the bottom. I have this arrangement in my Long Deep Hive.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/99514363@N06/albums/72157644091488819

 

[pargyle]

A simple process of rolling a cup of bees with a t spoon of sugar to assess mite load at any one time. One can simply devise up their own way of carrying it out or buy a cheap kit to do it from Abelo for about £15.

Really good practical demonstration here:



I have one of these varroa testers now but for years I just used an old style kilner jar with the metal disc replaced with varroa mesh - worked well. You need to use icing sugar - ordinary sugar won't work as it does not dislodge the mites- the grains are too coarse.

 

[pargyle]

Varroa kills hives In two years. Compare the study where feral colonies were researched.

Beehive can live tens of years, when varroa kills the colony and next summer the hive gets a new swarm.

Now we can start the debate, where here and there bee colonies live without human's help.

Ok ... I'll just nip out and tell my bees that they are now 8 years overdue for dying out and they had better get on with it ....

 

[BaconWizard]

The ideal bee hive entrance is, in my opinion, a periscope - with the entry to the hive at the top but the bees enter at the bottom. I have this arrangement in my Long Deep Hive.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/99514363@N06/albums/72157644091488819

THAT is a delightfully sneaky idea! Found a couple of youtube vids about it. And obviously if it's your favourite then it has had good results for you over time, I assume. Good to know. Adding it to my list of things to come-back-to later.

 

[pargyle]

THAT is a delightfully sneaky idea! Found a couple of youtube vids about it. And obviously if it's your favourite then it has had good results for you over time, I assume. Good to know. Adding it to my list of things to come-back-to later.

Yes ... it has lots of advantages ... keeps the heat in the hive whilst giving the bees a top entrance, with a perpex front to the periscope you can really see what is going into the hive, virtually wasp proof ... I've been thinking for some years how I could convert one or two of my Paynes Polys to this sort of entrance but haven't got round to it ...

 

[Finman]

Ok ... I'll just nip out and tell my bees that they are now 8 years overdue for dying out and they had better get on with it ....

I remember since you got the first 6 frame swarm, your beekeeping has been mere miracle. You taught first of your years " do nothing" skills.

 

[pargyle]

I remember since you got the first 6 frame swarm, your beekeeping has been mere miracle. You taught first of your years " do nothing" skills.

You know perfectly well that I don't 'DO NOTHING' .. I just don't treat MY bees for varroa. I agree with a lot of what you say ... but just because you have had a very bad experience with varroa does not mean that everyone else will. I agree with you that a hive that is badly infested with varroa will succumb and if you want the bees to survive then you must treat them. I'm not even suggesting that every colony is the same - some seem able to manage the varroa loads and some don't. It's time that you called a truce on this ... I don't advocate that other people should follow my path and if they do then do it with a degree of caution and the supposition that it may not work for them. It's not a miracle Finnie - it's a combination of circumstances, situation and location with a modicum of luck and a lot of checking varroa levels.

 

[Swn58]

I have a theory that over-inspecting actually sets the colony back as they spend more time trying to reinstate what 'damage' the beekeeper has done to their environment. I rather feel that any healthy colony will achieve the maximum crop they are capable of in that particulare location if left, to some extent, to get on with it.

I totally agree. I try not to keep 'fiddling' with my bees generally, but the EFB warnings have led me to checking the farm bees every couple of weeks. Lo and behold, there's been less honey this year and they are far more tetchy!

 

[Swn58]

This area refers to the industry I work in. You have no idea what you are talking about. Please see previous point about engaging in discussion rather than getting personal/emotional and making spurious and utterly ridiculous claims.

Well said. This place does seem to attract people who are loud about subjects that they know very little about, yet 'wade in' anyway!

 

[Moobee]

Interesting....especially on the propolis. Mould suppression by having a mesh floor? Surely, ventilation from above is better, as mould is caused by liquid not being able to escape upwards.....as in condensation? Just a thought...

Errrrrr no, heat rises so it means the bees have to work extra harder to keep the hive warm. It’s like having your heating on and all your upstairs windows open…..