Can bees manage themselves

[IndiBee]

I think I said 'small pockets' and 'isolated', nothing about multiple areas!
Definitely areas in mid and north Wales though.
I'm afraid you'd have to speak to the Industry, RBI or the researchers to find out why they aren't interested, sorry, can't help you there.

If these pockets didn't exist here in Wales (or my other place in France), I would have no bees at all. ALL my bees come from the local wild population apart from the splits I do myself. I can never get my head round paying £££££ for bees, but then again I choose where to bee keep based on where the bees thrive in the wild.
Mind you, its not in the interests of the commercial importers to let anyone believe this is possible and they just try convincing people a caught swarm is someone elses lost swarm - well I have never caught a marked queen yet.

 

[IndiBee]

Forgive my ignorance/innocence would the bees lack of survival be due to the design of the hive, the methods we have used to keep them, such as treatment of diseases

The hive designs are for the beekeepers ease of use, not the bees health. Look inside a natural tree hive and two differences are clear.
1. The insides are coated in Propolis. This is thought by many to be very beneficial to the bees health but a bit of a pain for a bee keeper (crazy sticky). If I could get the bees to coat the inside of a hive with Propolis with no mess to me, I would be very happy.
2. Size. The tree hollows are usually far smaller than a hive. Bees swarm when it gets full and the natural brood breaks that follow help reduce mites. Bee keepers, of course, spend a lot of effort preventing bees from swarming; mites increase.

 

[bingevader]

You said pockets so we can assume there’s more than 1.

Goodness! As said, I know of two, one in Mid and one in North Wales!

Can you provide any evidence to the situation or these pockets.

So you can burn their hives down?
They're not difficult to find, just do a search.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

If these pockets didn't exist here in Wales (or my other place in France), I would have no bees at all. ALL my bees come from the local wild population apart from the splits I do myself.

so if you catch swarms every year, that must mean your colony numbers increase year by year, so how many are you up to now? - or do you just use them to replace the ones that died?

 

[Ian123]

So you can burn their hives down?
They're not difficult to find, just do a search.

Ok so you can’t provide any info for us and your getting daft.

 

[bingevader]

Ok so you can’t provide any info for us and your getting daft.

Well, it was getting a bit daft, wasn't it?!
One would usually assume that anyone with an interest in a particular area might have first done a very rudimentary search on the web?
However, have you contacted the Lleyn and Eifionydd BKA?
Might be your first port of call, if you are really interested.

 

[pargyle]

@pargyle, what is your method for keeping bees without treatment? Clearly you assess the mite load. But what do you actually then do when you find mites? Genuine question - I think it would be very useful for anyone else considering non-treatment out there to hear this if possible. Thanks in advance.

My Treatment free regime has been well documented on here many times - the short answer to your question is nothing. I do regular sugar rolls and most of the time there are only low levels of mites in my hives - I see 'spikes' occasionally and I keep a close eye on that colony when I see it ... inevitably the infestation levels return to more 'normal' levels. I watch closely for signs of varroa related disease and thankfully have never seen any.

I don't preach that treatment free is the way forward for everyone and if a new beekeeper was intending being treatment free I would actively discourage them. I don't lose colonies - I lost one this year to a swarm that caught me out and a subsequent queen failure but I can't say that varroa has ever contributed significantly to any colony I've lost over the years .. yes, I've had the odd colony dwindle and I've starved at least one that I can remember. But .. my colonies survive, thrive and provide a honey crop that pays for their upkeep.

If I found a colony that were unable to reduce the mite load on their own I would treat - OA by sublimation - I've not had to do it yet but it's pointless being a beekeeper, monitoring varroa and not being prepared to do something about it if TF is not working. The last thing I want is weak or dead colonies.

I don't know why my bees manage to live alongside varroa and maintain mite levels at a level they cope with. Often I find no mites in my sugar rolls at all ... more often than not it's one or two, rarely more than 5. I've seen 15 on one occasion and had a few sleepless night over that one - next sugar roll down to 5 and then 2 !

I think it's a combination of bees, location, high levels of hive insulation, foundation free, local concentrations/combinations of forage (not many high value intensive crops eg: OSR/Heather where I live), low interference inspections and LUCK ... who knows ? It works for me and I keep doing it but don't follow me - I'm well off the beaten track and there are always risks.

 

[pargyle]

I've always wondered how regularly checking varroa levels and threatenening them with treatment if they don't play ball is any different from letting them manage themselves.

There's a bit more too it than that .... see above.

 

[Boston Bees]

My Treatment free regime has been well documented on here many times - the short answer to your question is nothing. I do regular sugar rolls and most of the time there are only low levels of mites in my hives - I see 'spikes' occasionally and I keep a close eye on that colony when I see it ... inevitably the infestation levels return to more 'normal' levels. I watch closely for signs of varroa related disease and thankfully have never seen any.

I don't preach that treatment free is the way forward for everyone and if a new beekeeper was intending being treatment free I would actively discourage them. I don't lose colonies - I lost one this year to a swarm that caught me out and a subsequent queen failure but I can't say that varroa has ever contributed significantly to any colony I've lost over the years .. yes, I've had the odd colony dwindle and I've starved at least one that I can remember. But .. my colonies survive, thrive and provide a honey crop that pays for their upkeep.

If I found a colony that were unable to reduce the mite load on their own I would treat - OA by sublimation - I've not had to do it yet but it's pointless being a beekeeper, monitoring varroa and not being prepared to do something about it if TF is not working. The last thing I want is weak or dead colonies.

I don't know why my bees manage to live alongside varroa and maintain mite levels at a level they cope with. Often I find no mites in my sugar rolls at all ... more often than not it's one or two, rarely more than 5. I've seen 15 on one occasion and had a few sleepless night over that one - next sugar roll down to 5 and then 2 !

I think it's a combination of bees, location, high levels of hive insulation, foundation free, local concentrations/combinations of forage (not many high value intensive crops eg: OSR/Heather where I live), low interference inspections and LUCK ... who knows ? It works for me and I keep doing it but don't follow me - I'm well off the beaten track and there are always risks.

Very useful - many thanks for your comprehensive answer.

 

[Ed the Beek]

Never check varroa levels, always inspect for disease, practice swarm management, my colony losses are average at worst.

 

[Swn58]

Forgive my ignorance/innocence would the bees lack of survival be due to the design of the hive, the methods we have used to keep them, such as treatment of diseases

You have a point. Naturally, honey bees, or woodland bees that we bred them from in the first place, would not live in the sort of environment that we provide them with? Warre's are maybe a more 'natural' design, but not commercially viable unfortunately.
I tend to walk along the fence here. My bees need treating for varroa, feeding and swarm control. They wouldn't be my bees otherwise. However, I try to cause as less fuss for them as possible. When I harvest honey I am constantly trying to make the process as efficient as I can. This is to create less stress, for both the bees and me!
This year, on my farm apiary, there has been an EFB alert. I have been regularly doing 'deep' inspections, at times of the year that I wouldn't usually.
My QC inspections usually run from early May to the end of June generally. After that I tend to leave brood boxes alone. This season though, I felt compelled to keep checking for EFB.
Some of my colonies are particularly 'spirited' at the best of times. All this extra attention though has not really helped us agree on a good 'working relationship' this year

 

[Swn58]

You said pockets so we can assume there’s more than 1. Isolated or not do they exist more to the point? I’m also sure there’s no areas in the UK so isolated there not covered by an RBI. Even in Wales! Or probably a Welsh BFA member. Can you provide any evidence to the situation or these pockets.

If there are such people, I suggest we all hunt them down.
When we find them, we start by poking them with hive-tools and maybe even puffing smoke at them with our smokers? Even at VERY close range! That'll learn'em

 

[Swn58]

Goodness! As said, I know of two, one in Mid and one in North Wales!

So you can burn their hives down?
They're not difficult to find, just do a search.

RIGHT.....that's it.....hone them hive-tools.......light the smokers. Tally Hooooo!

 

[user 20297]

There's a bit more too it than that .... see above.

I've put it a bit glibly and you've explained in a detailed way, but it doesn't add up to any more than I suggested.
I fully support your approach and wish I hadn't given in to the doom-mongers this year and treated my bees, but I think that in summary, your last paragraph describes a lot of the factors which will lead to having strong and healthy bees which are best able to tolerate varroa.

 

[Boston Bees]

I fully support our approach and wish I hadn't given in to the doom-mongers this year and treated my bees

So take the strips out. They've only been in for 3 weeks or so, so they'll be plenty of varroa in brood cells which haven't been affected by them yet. Taking them out early isn't problematic from the point of view of generating resistance, so it's fine. Have the courage of your convictions!

The strips will have killed quite a few varroa, so your bees will probably come through winter OK. So the proper test of your desired approach will really come next winter. But given that varroa kills colonies over 2/3 years, rather than instantly, that was always going to be the case.

Good luck with your methodology, genuinely.

Perhaps every beginner has to try treatment free in order to really believe in what varroa can do. I did. They do say that the only way to really learn something is to do it yourself.

 

[user 20297]

So take the strips out. They've only been in for 3 weeks or so, so they'll be plenty of varroa in brood cells which haven't been affected by them yet. Taking them out early isn't problematic from the point of view of generating resistance, so it's fine. Have the courage of your convictions!

The strips will have killed quite a few varroa, so your bees will probably come through winter OK. So the proper test of your desired approach will really come next winter. But given that varroa kills colonies over 2/3 years, rather than instantly, that was always going to be the case.

Good luck with your methodology, genuinely.

Perhaps every beginner has to try treatment free in order to really believe in what varroa can do. I did. They do say that the only way to really learn something is to do it yourself.

Taking the strips out early is not a good recommendation; apparently this can be very counterproductive in assisting the development of apitraz resistance in mites.....I've started so I'll finish, as Magnus used to say.

 

[Markthebuilder]

[QUOTE="pargyle, who knows ? It works for me and I keep doing it but don't follow me - I'm well off the beaten track and there are always risks.
[/QUOTE]

Do you mean you/your hives are isolated / a long way from other beeks or you don’t follow the majority?

 

[pargyle]

[QUOTE="pargyle, who knows ? It works for me and I keep doing it but don't follow me - I'm well off the beaten track and there are always risks.

Do you mean you/your hives are isolated / a long way from other beeks or you don’t follow the majority?
[/QUOTE]
I don't follow the majority ... I live near the centre of town .. there are gardens, parks, allotments, a railway embankment and fields and hedgerows within flying distance for my bees - all within half a mile of where my bees are so they don't fly far. I think they are fairly lazy as well ... this may contribute to the low varroa loads as there are not that many beekeepers within the immediate vicinity ... over 300 within 10Km though

 

[ericbeaumont]

This utopia tree cavity is poppycock, they’ll simply use what’s available.

True, Ian, bees now will use anything that looks halfway suitable, but when they evolved (80-130m years ago) the choice was limited to either a tree or a hole in a rock; there were no convenient chimneys, a dilapidated barn, hedge mattress or that empty hive Old Bob forgot.

 

[Ian123]

What makes me laugh is this perfect utopian tree trunk that gets referred to regularly. I’ve done more than my share of removals and as a kid I made a hobby of collecting unwanted bees. On regular trips abroad I’ve helped a beek/company that specialised in expensive removals!. I’ve yet to see 2 trunks the same. Many have multiple entrances. Some have entire areas ripped off exposing comb to weather and predators. Some are small in volume and others large the point is few if any are identical or reach the often quoted perfect scenario. Many even end up fallen when the inevitable storm passes. Going the complete opposite I’ve removed a good number of colonies from oil drums that baked in the sun and quite literally a few mm thick. I was taught as a beginner bees don’t nest in the ground and whilst rarely in this country(I’ve seen it 3 times) it’s common abroad. Bees can and do use a multitude of cavities that are available. To top it off I’ll bet the house my hives even the wooden ones survive far better than any in a tree