Buying first hives

[lukenuc'em]

I've seen Thornes have a deal on at the moment, I'm considering getting the following as they appear to be the best value on the market (pick up only):

2x cedar nationals with 2 supers
2x extra supers
50 pack off SN4 frames
20 wired foundation for SN4'
Some mouse guards (seen them in the field I am setting this up on)

I am overbuying if I get an extra brood box too right?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

how are you going to arrange the frames in the supers? if you just use Hoffmans you will get eleven frames to the box - if you want ten to a box you will need castellations and will only need SN1's
you will also need a pack of DN4 frames for the brood boxes and three packs of foundation to match
and dummy boards

 

[lukenuc'em]

Sorry I forgot to say the set comes with frames and foundation, it does not say what type but the pessimist in me tells me it will be the cheaper SN1's so you have a very good point, I might opt for the plastic narrow end clips, I will need some dummy boards too your right !

 

[Wilco]

Castellations don't cost much, just add some to your order. However I often use SN1s without and just space them manually.

 

[WoodenBeam]

Or self spacing Manleys in your supers (*10/box), no need spacers - if you speak to Thornes they might offer this as an upgrade.
Dummy boards only for brood boxes

 

[ericbeaumont]

best value on the market

For the bees or the beekeeper? Not for the bees, because wood is a far inferior hive material to poly, which gives significantly greater thermal efficiency all year round, reducing bee labour & stores consumption and increasing yields.

it will be the cheaper

In the short term, maybe, but beekeeping is a long game and a few pounds more at the beginning is neither here nor there, so don't be seduced down that dark alley. Efficiency of equipment for the bees and commonality of it for the beekeeper are paramount, but they don't include those factors in an online catalogue.

overbuying if I get an extra brood box

Although you have read a lot, your practical inexperience with equipment will lead you to buy too little and run out of management options early in the season.

Have you any poly nuc boxes? A couple will enable you to nuc the queen and make increase. Split boards are cost-effective tools to make vertical splits for swarm management, and extra broods, frames and foundation will enable that to work. QX? Plastic are a practical mess; buy wood framed stainless steel. Feeders? Abelo poly box feeders are best value in my experience because they can do five jobs and you won't need to pay for a flimsy ply crownboard.

Some mouse guards (seen them in the field I am setting this up on)

If you were to buy the boxes and roofs but make floors to JBM's plans you could dispense with the fiddle and expense of mouse guards forever.

I am overbuying

If that is your whole list, you're underbuying. Colony expansion will hit you like a tsunami in spring and although you have planned for more than the standard static catalogue spec. of a brood & 2 supers, you have a way to go.

2x cedar nationals with 2 supers
2x extra supers
50 pack off SN4 frames
20 wired foundation for SN4'
Some mouse guards (seen them in the field I am setting

How about this to chew over, per hive:
1 x UFE floor (make)
3 x brood boxes
4 x supers (English cedar)
1 x poly feeder
1 x poly roof
1 x poly nuc box
100 x DN4 (seconds) frames
50 x SN4 or Manley (seconds) frames
100 x DN foundation
50 x SN foundation
1 x wood framed QX
1 x split board (make)
1 x 500g Challenge 20mm gimp pins
1 x big shed (no, no, much bigger than that)

 

[Mint Bee]

Eric,
You forgot 'an accommodating family' from your list
covers a multitude of activities

 

[Amari]

Or self spacing Manleys in your supers (*10/box), no need spacers - if you speak to Thornes they might offer this as an upgrade.
Dummy boards only for brood boxes

I agree Manleys are the best design for supers - self spacing and easier to uncap. I used them for 25 years in Langstroth hives. However when I moved to Suffolk I changed to National hives and bought a 9-frame radial extractor from Thorne's. This machine will not accommodate nine Manleys, only three sandwiched between SN4s.

 

[ericbeaumont]

9-frame radial extractor from Thorne

This 9-frame Lega cage also fits a Logar extractor and perhaps others; it is designed to take any sort of frame, and will hold 9 Manleys radially.

 

[Buzby]

Or self spacing Manleys in your supers (*10/box), no need spacers - if you speak to Thornes they might offer this as an upgrade.
Dummy boards only for brood boxes

Manleys are the devils invention.

 

[gillsmith]

Sorry I forgot to say the set comes with frames and foundation, it does not say what type but the pessimist in me tells me it will be the cheaper SN1's so you have a very good point, I might opt for the plastic narrow end clips, I will need some dummy boards too your right !

You can choose either option - both SN1 or SN4

 

[ericbeaumont]

need some dummy boards

Not if you use the BBs linked above: the box takes 11 frames with about 6mm wriggle room to allow the end frame to be taken out without rolling bees.

Does help to compress frames together at the end of a check, and split the slight gap produced to either end of the box.

plastic narrow end clips

More fiddly expense and more things that clog & for you to clean. They may have been the in-thing in 1947, but Hoffmans make life easy.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I might opt for the plastic narrow end clips,

awful things from the dark ages - either use hoffmans or castellations

 

[Ely]

Manleys are the devils invention.

What's up with Manleys? I was just considering using them. I want the wax drawn further to make it easier to uncap than Hoffmans.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

What's up with Manleys? I was just considering using them. I want the wax drawn further to make it easier to uncap than Hoffmans.

in that case, don't depend on the hoffman shoudlers for spacing - just use SN1's and castellations. Trouble is with Manleys is that the bees propolise the frames fast together they may draw the wax out further, but then - the frames go out further, so no real benefit, you relly need to tease the capping knife in to decap properly. Manleys and hoffmans serve the same purpose - self spacing frames just the Manleys use more wood.

 

[ericbeaumont]

with Manleys is that the bees propolise the frames fast together

Useful for two reasons: first, combs don't flap about when carting them full of honey, so avoid leaks from nudged cappings. Secondly, it's an easy place to collect propolis for sale as the joint is usually clear of seasonal hive debris.

 

[ericbeaumont]

Manleys are the devils invention.

What's up with Manleys?

Nothing; comment is entertaining but justification & explanation is more useful.

Manley ran 1000 colonies before the war and must have had good reason to design a frame with parallel sides. That design difference results in an ideal frame for comb honey production.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Useful for two reasons: first, combs don't flap about when carting them full of honey, so avoid leaks from nudged cappings.

in all my years of using SN1's on castellations I have never had combs 'flapping about' when the supers are moved - what do you do to them? roll them along the ground!?
Manley himself said that Hoffman's were far superior to any other frame, although he did prefer his 'close ended' frames in the super. and he actually mentions a case of a box of hoffman's falling off a load of bees being transported, roling along the ground and still not being flapped about.
He also stated that end spacers (metal then, but the same as modern plastic ones) are one of the 'most objectionable features of the British equipment'

 

[Ely]

I currently have Hoffmans in my nationals and Langstroths. I dont think castellations are an option in langstroth supers. They don't seem to sell them anyway. Nice fat honey frames look nice

 

[pargyle]

Eric,
You forgot 'an accommodating family' from your list
covers a multitude of activities

And a big shed ... or two ...