brood sheets

[dafyddcoch]

I have ordered 22 frames and sheets for my son's supers, but did not order brood frames and sheets as we were going to lift the frames out, complete with bees and place them into my son's brood box once the bees arrive. Unfortunately, the person we're having the bees from has just rung me and apologised as he'd not sussed that his brood frames are extra deep as opposed to our more usual deep brood box frames. I therefore need to purchase brood foundation (we have a few spare frames) but it only seems to come in packs of 10 and I understand we need 11 frames plus a dummy board. Do we need 11 brood frames or is 10 ok for brood and 11 in each super alright? Also, am I being cynical but is the reason for selling 10s just a vicious sales strategy or am I missing something?

 

[JamezF]

Ten is just a convenient number to sell them in. If you had a WBC hive it would be perfect.

Foundation gets used at some point anyhow, so ordering more than you need is no big deal, but if you really don't want to then you could just cut the last sheet in half lengthways and use each half sheet in two frames. The bees won't care. These days I mostly buy unwired brood foundation and cut it into strips about 3cm wide to use for all my frames, letting the bees do the rest of the work as they see fit.

James

 

[Garry R]

Buy 20 and you'll be covered. You'll likely need them sooner than you realise. Beekeeping is a rapidly rising acquisition of kit.

 

[dafyddcoch]

Ten is just a convenient number to sell them in. If you had a WBC hive it would be perfect.

Foundation gets used at some point anyhow, so ordering more than you need is no big deal, but if you really don't want to then you could just cut the last sheet in half lengthways and use each half sheet in two frames. The bees won't care. These days I mostly buy unwired brood foundation and cut it into strips about 3cm wide to use for all my frames, letting the bees do the rest of the work as they see fit.

James

That's the sort of know-how that comes with experience. Like it

 

[ericbeaumont]

Assuming you have a National wood hive, then yes, 11 + a dummy board is usual, but don't think you can just buy 11 and put your feet up!

You'll need 11 frames for each BB - one brood box and two supers is not going to be anywhere near enough - and 6 for a nuc box, and don't forget the third BB for carrying out an Artificial Swarm next year.

Total is now up to 38, but you'll need 6 more if you catch a swarm in a nuc box.

Allow for a few duds & spares and you're up to 50 DN4 per colony, but don't buy first quality frames, which are expensive and unnecessarily perfect, but seconds, and you won't get better than Maisemore DN4 seconds.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/18572463...aXkuxfnR16&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY
To save time I have shaken bees off 14x12 frames and sawn off the bottom of each frame to reduce the depth to standard National. Lose bit of brood, perhaps, but the frames went straight into a standard box, bees repaired the cut comb and the frames gave good service for another couple of seasons.

 

[dafyddcoch]

Buy 20 and you'll be covered. You'll likely need them sooner than you realise. Beekeeping is a rapidly rising acquisition of kit.

That is becoming more obvious by the day! I hadn't factored in the price of building of an extra room on the house for al the bee stuff when we were costing this new hobby of his! Maybe an old 10ft caravan will suffice for now. I can't expect him to keep it all in his bedroom after all.

 

[JamezF]

Hah! I started keeping bees in 2006 (I think) and last year was the first year that I'd actually managed to have all of my kit in a single place, and only then because I dismantled my bee (cheapo 8x6 prefab) shed, moved it elsewhere and extended it by several feet.

James

 

[Wilco]

In the short term some suppliers sell in packs of 11. I believe Simon the Beekeeper is one of those.

I personally really like Maisemore wax. Not sure if they still do this but they used to do 10% off over £100 of wax, 20% off £200 of wax. Foundation doesn't take up much space so it is worth buying in bulk if there's a discount.

@ericbeaumont love the sawing idea, you just earned hero points.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

am I being cynical but is the reason for selling 10s just a vicious sales strategy or am I missing something?

you will find as time goes on that you will be continuously changing/scrapping a frame here and there, you will always need to keep a few sheets of foundation handy.
If you could buy foundation in packs of eleven (I believe there is one supplier who does this in an attempt to gull the gullible) you will probably find you really needed twelve. And what if you buy a five frame nuc of bees off someone? would you then wonder why they don't sell foundation in packs of six?
You do need a full suit of 11 frames in the brood.
So how is he proposing to transfer the bees from 14x12" frames into your deep brood?

 

[dafyddcoch]

Thanks. going on the comments from ericbeaumont above, I've already started the process of ordering spare sheets and frames. I may not purchase all 50 tomorrow though!

It certainly seems to make sense to have 'reserve stock', for what in engineering workshops I would call 'consumables'.

Not sure about the process of transferring the bees. I'd have thought they'd be pretty miffed by the process. He's also said he's looking around his fellow keepers locally to see if they also have Welsh Blacks for sale.

​

 

[JamezF]

Thanks. going on the comments from @ericbeaumont above, I've already started the process of ordering spare sheets and frames. I may not purchase all 50 tomorrow though!

Best thing to do where possible is to wait for the sales and then buy lots of the second quality bits.

James

 

[ericbeaumont]

I'd have thought they'd be pretty miffed by the process.

No, sawing off the bottom is dead easy with little disruption. The photo shows an empty frame & comb, but cutting frames containing brood is just as straightforward.

If you want to go the extra mile, cut out any brood from the off-cuts and fit the sections like a rough jigsaw into an empty DN4; strap round the frame a few rubber bands. Bees will make repairs and remove the bands in due course.

Bear in mind that bees do not have the human instinct of miffiness and will just get on with the repair work once the frames are back in the hive. Lack of bottom bars is not an issue.

 

[user 20297]

Thanks. going on the comments from ericbeaumont above, I've already started the process of ordering spare sheets and frames. I may not purchase all 50 tomorrow though!

It certainly seems to make sense to have 'reserve stock', for what in engineering workshops I would call 'consumables'.

Not sure about the process of transferring the bees. I'd have thought they'd be pretty miffed by the process. He's also said he's looking around his fellow keepers locally to see if they also have Welsh Blacks for sale.

​

I think you ought too; you will need them.

 

[dafyddcoch]

No, sawing off the bottom is dead easy with little disruption. The photo shows an empty frame & comb, but cutting frames containing brood is just as straightforward.

If you want to go the extra mile, cut out any brood from the off-cuts and fit the sections like a rough jigsaw into an empty DN4; strap round the frame a few rubber bands. Bees will make repairs and remove the bands in due course.

Bear in mind that bees do not have the human instinct of miffiness and will just get on with the repair work once the frames are back in the hive. Lack of bottom bars is not an issue.

View attachment 36421

Flippin hec! I would never have had the confidence to do that. Thanks! I'll mention it to my friend who is supplying the bees. I guess if one can spot the queen and she is in the brood box, the rest will eventually follow her. Still very much a guess though. I'm so glad we've got you guys and our local club bods to advise.

 

[ericbeaumont]

would never have had the confidence to do that.

If you can slice a loaf of bread, you can cut the side bars & comb, and like a loaf of bread, the frame won't have bees on it.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

If you can slice a loaf of bread

that rules out the majority of English people I've worked with over the years - seeing the mess they make from a loaf on the messdeck at lunchtimes

 

[dafyddcoch]

If you can slice a loaf of bread, you can cut the side bars & comb, and like a loaf of bread, the frame won't have bees on it.

As someone who bakes the family bread supply, I've got rather good with a bread knife. over the years. My wonderful wife creates slopes on the loaf a Borrower could use a child's slide!

 

[ericbeaumont]

the mess they make from a loaf

Brought up on Wonderloaf & Warburton's ready-sliced rubbish? We swear by Crank's Wholemeal, a solid block that needs a good eye to slice thin enough to fit the toaster without jamming, but thick enough to stay upright.

 

[Nick Lang]

JBM's post
In my house when I go to the bread.... there's a fifty fifty chance my wife has butchered it with the bread knife.....I wouldn't let her near my frames!

 

[Curly green finger's]

that rules out the majority of English people I've worked with over the years - seeing the mess they make from a loaf on the messdeck at lunchtimes

The idea is to cut it by standing the loaf on its end and a horizontal cut to be used