Blackish Bee I.D. Please

[shudderdun]

Can anyone identify these blackish bees please.
They are a bit on the small side, look rather skinny and appear to have large eyes.
I caught them in a seven frame bate hive back in May where they have remained, there is a laying mated queen in residence.
Many Thanks.

 

[sherwood]

Oldish mongerals probably, old because they have lost all the hair this tends to make slightly shiny and appear darker.

 

[charlievictorbravo]

They don't look quite right for Amm. Have a look at pictures of some of the Miner Bees to see if these are they.

They tend to find a nest site in or close to the ground but maybe yours haven't read the books!

CVB

 

[Finno]

Appear to be very old bees who have lost their hair. Very often seen where a colony has been queenless for a very long time and workers, having no brood to rear or much work to do, survive for long time.

 

[protheroe]

Could be cbpv

 

[Swarm]

I don't see hair loss. Look again, thorax hair and the abdomen is outlined by hairs.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Posted this on Facebook bees wasps and ants page
Watch this space

Edit
Three replies already.
Honeybees

 

[Madge]

They don't look quite right for Amm. Have a look at pictures of some of the Miner Bees to see if these are they. ...

CVB

CVB, how could you! Miner bees! They’re honey bees, whether Amm we don’t know.



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[Madge]

I don't see hair loss. Look again, thorax hair and the abdomen is outlined by hairs.

You can see a halo of hair around their thoraces - but the tops are bald, typical of older bees. So are their abdomens.


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[Madge]

Can anyone identify these blackish bees please.
They are a bit on the small side, look rather skinny and appear to have large eyes. ...

I think they're difficult to identify, but have a look at the the SNHBS website's page, Identifying native honey bees - might help a bit.

 

[Jafer2]

Looks like old female amm to me but wouldnt know until you do a blood test and wing examination! 100% honey bees. Also possability of being queenless but saying that they swarmed into your box so could have a queen and guess you could find out in spring.

Would be interesting to see the queen and what she looks like if you have one and if they survive winter

 

[Swarm]

Again, I don't agree about hair loss, just look like average foragers.

 

[REDWOOD]

Again, I don't agree about hair loss, just look like average foragers.

plenty of ginger hairs. Bodies have that distinct definition between thorax and abdomen which is found in AMMs

 

[shudderdun]

looks like old female amm to me but wouldnt know until you do a blood test and wing examination! 100% honey bees. Also possability of being queenless but saying that they swarmed into your box so could have a queen and guess you could find out in spring.

Would be interesting to see the queen and what she looks like if you have one and if they survive winter

i did check the hive around the middle of september, i could not see the queen but there was brood as you would expect to see.
Cant fault them for not being busy they are always on the go and in fair numbers.
I did not realise at the time of first posting this queary it was only pointed out after how much of a runt the bee on the right looks, they are not all quite as ill looking as that one, but they are small.
I have been feeding them, so it will be interesting to see if they make it through to next year.
Also only found out earlier that a friend who lives about a mile away as the crow flies also received a similar swarm about the same time as i did !

 

[Madge]

plenty of ginger hairs. Bodies have that distinct definition between thorax and abdomen which is found in AMMs

Can you please explain a bit more, Redwood. What distinct definition?


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[REDWOOD]

Can you please explain a bit more, Redwood. What distinct definition?


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If you look at the bit that joins the thorax to the abdomen it narrows to a sharp point rather than a thick joint, its something I have notices on a couple of colonies that I have seen with black bees and AMMs
http://www.sicamm.org/WhatApis.html

 

[Swarm]

Can you please explain a bit more, Redwood. What distinct definition?


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I think it is due to the hair length and colour that creates a 'gap' between thorax and abdomen. It's more distinct in sunny conditions.

Shudderdun,
If we call the bees north, south, east and west, you can clearly see the thorax hair on north and west and they have a pale 'outline' defining the abdomen, this is also hair. From above, the thorax generally does appear hairless but compare this with the queen (when you see her) quite different.
From above bees' eyes do appear to stick out but when you see them side on or from the front, they look quite different. Look at south and east for eye comparison and both look normal to me. East doesn't look like a runt either, it's the same size.
All four have intact wings.

 

[Swarm]

Any more info? They occupied a seven frame box in May and you say they are still there. They are foraging well in poor weather, what was their situation on last inspection? Number of brood combs etc.

 

[shudderdun]

Any more info? They occupied a seven frame box in May and you say they are still there. They are foraging well in poor weather, what was their situation on last inspection? Number of brood combs etc.

Only as I say, I did the inspection mid September, the bees where over five of the frames. From left to right, the first frame was 75% drawn (note frames one and seven were foundation from when I set the bait hive up in May, all the rest were drawn cone) with some store on frame two and brood on frame three, I did not go any further as once I saw the brood I didn't want to disturb them any more (I could see the othe frames with bees on by looking down into the hive)

In the last four weeks they have taken down 4x4 pints of 2:1 syrup/water but are still foraging well, pollen coming in but not in huge amounts.

Thanks to everyone who have contributed !

 

[Swarm]

I've added this pic to show the point that Redwood was making.

They sound like they should have plenty of stores, they are busy, I'd just tuck them up and keep an eye over Winter.
It'll be interesting to see what they are like next season.