Best sign that Queen is dead?

[itma]

...
when going all guns blazing (with adequate food, workers and space to lay),
eggs: open-brood:capped-brood ratio should be 1 : 2 : 4

Punctuated, etc to improve clarity.

1:2:4 indicates a steady laying rate.
If the rate is increasing, there will be more eggs & open brood than the ratio suggests.
If the rate is decreasing, there will be more sealed brood than the standard ratio.

Running short of laying space, or a restricted food supply, would be reasons that the laying rate would decrease.
About now, the rate ought to be increasing ...



/// As per Dr S, just having a feel for how that ratio is, gives you a useful indicator in 'reading' the colony.
Its a very useful skill for beginners to aim to acquire.

 

[Finman]

.
Even if I know the ratio, what I do then?
Very few beginner understand to tell, how many brood frames they have. Or how many frames bees occupye.

 

[Honeypi]

Bit of an update. We had another look in the hive this afternoon as it was nice out and the weather is due to turn.

The good thing is that we saw more very small larvae, so there were probably eggs at the last inspection. I would say that the ratio of larvae to capped brood is less than 1:2. However, this might be partly due to a lack of space.

A lot of the brood which had hatched since last time had been replaced with pollen and nectar stores. They seem to be bringing in a lot of both. One of the frames of foundation is drawn on one side which they're starting to put stores in. The other three frames are close to being drawn but not being used as yet.

The last thing is that we saw a small, neat, cluster of capped drone brood in amongst the worker brood. We took a photo which I've attached. The fact that this is so neat, in amongst the worker brood and the timing of it suggests to me that this was laid by a queen rather than laying workers.

We're slightly freaking out so any more reassurance or advice would be very much appreciated!

 

[beeno]

Hi Honeypi,
Deep breath, calm down. You have a laying Q in there, but it will take time to develop the knack of seeing eggs and the Q. Hope she is marked, if not get someone to mark her for you. It would appear to me, that you have got drone brood in drone brood cells, so all is well. However, I do not like the look of the frame in the picture as there is not enough space for the Q to lay. Hope they are not all like that! You urgently need a couple of empty drawn brood frames if that's case, so she can start laying in earnest and use up the stores being collected.

 

[beeno]

Hi itma,
The ratio 1:2:4 is based on 3 days an egg, 6 days a larvae and 12 days capped brood. That is the optimum laying rate which cannot be improved on unless you unknowingly run a double queen colony.

 

[itma]

Hi itma,
The ratio 1:2:4 is based on 3 days an egg, 6 days a larvae and 12 days capped brood. That is the optimum laying rate which cannot be improved on unless you unknowingly run a double queen colony.

It is not the 'optimum'. And has nothing to do with one Q or two.

It is, as stated previously, simply what you get with laying at (any) constant rate. It comes from those different times at those stages.
And deviation from constant rate (increasing or decreasing) shows up as a difference in those brood proportions.

 

[itma]

Bit of an update. We had another look in the hive this afternoon as it was nice out and the weather is due to turn.

The good thing is that we saw more very small larvae, so there were probably eggs at the last inspection. I would say that the ratio of larvae to capped brood is less than 1:2. However, this might be partly due to a lack of space.

A lot of the brood which had hatched since last time had been replaced with pollen and nectar stores. They seem to be bringing in a lot of both. One of the frames of foundation is drawn on one side which they're starting to put stores in. The other three frames are close to being drawn but not being used as yet.

The last thing is that we saw a small, neat, cluster of capped drone brood in amongst the worker brood. We took a photo which I've attached. The fact that this is so neat, in amongst the worker brood and the timing of it suggests to me that this was laid by a queen rather than laying workers.

We're slightly freaking out so any more reassurance or advice would be very much appreciated!

I think that you would be well advised to see if an experienced member of your Association could drop by and have a look.
A little bit of educated rearrangement of the frames sounds to be long overdue.
Four frames of foundation at a time isn't the best way.
The wild comb beneath the frame bottom bar is a clear indication that they haven't expanded the brood nest as they they could/should have.
The risk that you should be looking out for is swarming.

 

[BeeJayBee]

I'm very new to this game but just did my first inspection over the weekend while it was good and warm. .....

.....I've searched around on the Internet and have read plenty but would still appreciate any tips on spotting her majesty or eggs!

Have you had any practical training, have you ever seen inside a colony other than the one you've acquired since you asked about getting bees in February this year?

It's really difficult to learn beekeeping from the internet. Starting beekeeping can be quite challenging, and is often overwhelming, for the best-trained beginner more especially if you don't have any nearby support or ongoing training.

The last thing is that we saw a small, neat, cluster of capped drone brood in amongst the worker brood. We took a photo which I've attached. The fact that this is so neat, in amongst the worker brood and the timing of it suggests to me that this was laid by a queen rather than laying workers.

Your picture shows that it's in the normal place for drone brood.

Also, and honestly, the gloves you are wearing aren't at all suitable for beekeeping. You will be stung easily through the knitted back, which could make you drop the frame. You would be better wearing long cuff washing up gloves that will protect your hands and cover the end of you sleeves.

 

[Finman]

Hi itma,
The ratio 1:2:4 is based on 3 days an egg, 6 days a larvae and 12 days capped brood. That is the optimum laying rate which cannot be improved on unless you unknowingly run a double queen colony.

Optimum laying rate in April. Why?

Is that an advice to a beginner, how to nurse hive? No one needs optimum laying rate.

 

[madasafish]

If the bees are flying and bringing in plenty of pollen that's normally a sign that all is well.

Err not in my experience. They do that with DLQs.

 

[Honeypi]

I think that you would be well advised to see if an experienced member of your Association could drop by and have a look.
A little bit of educated rearrangement of the frames sounds to be long overdue.
Four frames of foundation at a time isn't the best way.
The wild comb beneath the frame bottom bar is a clear indication that they haven't expanded the brood nest as they they could/should have.
The risk that you should be looking out for is swarming.

Hi itma, sorry I'd forgotten to mention that I rearranged the brood as described by Ted Hooper. Hopefully this will help them target specific frames to draw comb on.

Your post got me thinking about when I come to put a super on. At the moment I just have foundation, no drawn super frames. Might it be worth putting a super underneath the brood box so they can start to draw them out, or would that distract them from the more urgent task of drawing out the brood frames?

 

[Honeypi]

Have you had any practical training, have you ever seen inside a colony other than the one you've acquired since you asked about getting bees in February this year?

It's really difficult to learn beekeeping from the internet. Starting beekeeping can be quite challenging, and is often overwhelming, for the best-trained beginner more especially if you don't have any nearby support or ongoing training.


Your picture shows that it's in the normal place for drone brood.

Also, and honestly, the gloves you are wearing aren't at all suitable for beekeeping. You will be stung easily through the knitted back, which could make you drop the frame. You would be better wearing long cuff washing up gloves that will protect your hands and cover the end of you sleeves.

Thanks for your concern. I understand where you are coming from and why you might be worried.

We have been on a short course and have a friend nearby who has more hands on experience. We're also booked on to a longer course, run by MDBKA, in a few weeks time. I know this may not be ideal, having a small colony before doing the course. However, we have done a lot of research and have local knowledge and support, we just got a bit overexcited.

Regarding the gloves, you may have a point. We've not been stung yet despite them getting covered with bees. I'll put some marigolds on the shopping list!

 

[itma]

Hi itma, sorry I'd forgotten to mention that I rearranged the brood as described by Ted Hooper. Hopefully this will help them target specific frames to draw comb on.

Your post got me thinking about when I come to put a super on. At the moment I just have foundation, no drawn super frames. Might it be worth putting a super underneath the brood box so they can start to draw them out, or would that distract them from the more urgent task of drawing out the brood frames?

As soon as you have ALL* the brood box frames drawn, then you could put a shallow underneath so it becomes less 'new' and more bee-friendly.
As soon as they start to draw out the foundation in that shallow box, move it on top above a QX.

* I'd let you put the shallow under once they have started drawing all the frames in the brood - even if they haven't absolutely completed the job.

 

[For want of a better word]

I'll put some marigolds on the shopping list!

And a packet of Borage seeds!


Yeghes da

 

[BeeJayBee]

Thanks for your concern. I understand where you are coming from and why you might be worried.

We have been on a short course and have a friend nearby who has more hands on experience. We're also booked on to a longer course, run by MDBKA, in a few weeks time. I know this may not be ideal, having a small colony before doing the course. However, we have done a lot of research and have local knowledge and support, we just got a bit overexcited.

Regarding the gloves, you may have a point. We've not been stung yet despite them getting covered with bees. I'll put some marigolds on the shopping list!

You aren't the first, and you certainly won't be the last, to get bees when you can rather than when some say you should.

You'll be fine, I'm sure.

Take every opportunity to look inside hives and handle other people's (and an association's) bees. That way you'll be able to recognise what's right, and what might be wrong, with your own - when you're on your own.

Maybe might also be worth getting (or borrowing) a book with more pictures than Hooper, which will also help. Perhaps the Haynes Manual?

 

[Honeypi]

So, good news! We saw the old girl for the first time today. Just a very quick peek in the hive to check on the progress of the comb. She was on one of the newer frames so, with a bit of luck, she'll have been laying on there.

Put a super underneath with a QE, just to try and get them to draw out some comb before the bigger flows start. Hopefully that will pay off.

Thank you all for the advice and encouragement!

 

[maddydog]

Still struggle to see eggs?

Find a patch of sealed brood, as they radiate away the grubs should get smaller until they become eggs. If you still can't see them then either a trip to the opticians is in order or the q is either about to or has swarmed.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

So, good news! We saw the old girl for the first time today. Just a very quick peek in the hive to check on the progress of the comb. She was on one of the newer frames so, with a bit of luck, she'll have been laying on there.

Put a super underneath with a QE, just to try and get them to draw out some comb before the bigger flows start. Hopefully that will pay off.

Thank you all for the advice and encouragement!

Hmm - last weekend inspected, 9th of April opened up again, opened up yesterday - the bees are going to get nowhere with constant disturbance.especially as they need the heat to draw comb, However much you want to look at your bees - restrict inspections to once every seven days when the weather's warmer
Take that QX out from under the BB - how do you think drones are going to get out when they emerge?
The extra space of that nadired super isn't needed at this time either. when the bees need the space for storing you can just put the super up on top with a QX over the brood box, no need for this nonsense of leaving it under the brood for a while to 'warm up' when the bees need the space they will be up into it and drawing comb, no problem

Just picked up on your mentioning re-arranging the frames ala Ted Hooper - this should be left to the more experienced in reading the colony - it shouldn't be attempted on a weak colony or a small one building up - best leave the bees sort themselves out until you know what you are trying to achieve and how.If you are not careful you could end up setting them back not helping them expand