Best laid plans.....poor execution

[Pete D]

Between the showers yesterday I had a pressing engagement with colony in a std national hive that are on OSR when the sun shines and have 10 frames of BIAS and loaded queen cells on 3 frames, they also have 2 supers 1 of which is 80% full.
I had a plan to do an AS and take a small nuc of super bees with a frame of brood and a queen cell. All the required gear was duly loaded last night and I arrived at 12.30 in my lunch break to do the simple proceedure.
First issue was the amount of bees at home due to the showers, I set the supers on the roof and the brood box was spilling over......... good luck with finding the queen I thought ! Started through the box checking for queen and queen cells, the 3 frames were marked that were loaded, this had now become 5 frames that had loaded queen cells and the additional 2 were marked. At this stage I had a nuc and a spare brood box alongside with most of the frames removed so I could put the right bits in the right places. Got right through the box and no sign of the queen, had eggs though. Went through a 2nd time this time putting frames into the nuc or brood box, still no sign.
So it ended up like this which seemed like a good idea at the time.......
6 frame Nuc box had 1 frame of pollen and stores and one of mostly capped brood that included a fairly advanced queen cell and the bees still attached with no sign of the queen, put a couple of drawn frames with small anount of stores and dummied it down after shaking 4 super frames of bees in, closed the entrance disk and took it back to the home apiary.
Moved 6 frames of brood and bees into a new brood box and filled the void with frames of foundation, no sign of the queen and left 2 nice queen cells, put the 2 supers on this. This stands alongside the original hive location.
Left the last 3 frames including a couple of selected queen cells in the original hive added 3 drawn frames and 5 foundation but dummied down to the 6 drawn frames.
So 3 way split no queen to be found, each part of the split has queen cells and one part must have the queen. My plan is to go back on Friday and assess what develops, then I hope to be able to unite 2 parts and allow them to carry on with the OSR harvest. My thinking was that each part will not really have the resources to enable them to swarm right now, in terms of number of bees.
After driving off I remembered that I had not put the new brood with the 2 supers and most of the original brood back on the original spot, although further reflection led me to think that this was no bad thing as the flyers would go to the smaller hive so even more less likely to swarm.

Later I got a call for a swarm collection which were nice little dark bees hanging 4 ft off the ground in the local park, first spotted about 08.30am so they probably came out the previous day, tucked up in a 6 frame 14x12 now so a decent end to the day.

 

[Elaine]

Sounds identical to us a year ago ended up with 5 colonies. They swarmed twice!!!! keep looking for swarms. Those 5 survived last years summer and this years winter and are doing well

 

[enrico]

Whatever happens at least you will have bees!

 

[Tom Bick]

Hope the rest of your hives are easier than tha one otherwise who knows how many you may end up with. I know what a few people will be thinking, clip the queen.
Good luck it sounds like fun.

 

[beeno]

Hi Pete D,
At least you will know which one won't swarm. Have to be grateful for small mercies in this game! Will you recombine the other three now? No doubt my plans will be scuppered by the bees when the time comes. Thanks for sharing.

 

[lorrick]

Hi Pete
You make it sound easy

 

[Pete D]

Hi Pete D,
At least you will know which one won't swarm. Have to be grateful for small mercies in this game! Will you recombine the other three now? No doubt my plans will be scuppered by the bees when the time comes. Thanks for sharing.

Hi Beeno, I will assess all 3 parts tomorrow and determine which one has the queen. I will recombine 2/3rds of them asap as they are on OSR and I want a crop, ideally the queen will be in the nuc.............

 

[beeno]

Hi again Pete,
Sorry, I misunderstood I thought the swarm you picked up in the park was from same hive! I disagree, you don't make it sound easy. The degree of difficulty is still there even for a 17 hive owner! It is comforting for us newbies that someone of your calibre cannot find the queen either - thanks for sharing.

 

[Pete D]

Hi Pete
You make it sound easy

Never easy, I just approach the hives prepared with all the equipment that I need for everything I may find. I have also learnt that whatever I do even if I cock it up I can recover it if I go back in a few days later and reasess whats what or that despite my meddling the bees sort themselves out if I leave them the pre requisites to do this.
I also only open the hives if I have a good reason too and have a plan.

Calm methodical approach seems to work....................most of the time.

 

[Pete D]

Hi again Pete,
Sorry, I misunderstood I thought the swarm you picked up in the park was from same hive! I disagree, you don't make it sound easy. The degree of difficulty is still there even for a 17 hive owner! It is comforting for us newbies that someone of your calibre cannot find the queen either - thanks for sharing.

Ha ha not high calibre yet mate, I got my first bees 2 years and 2 months ago ! Steep learning curve and a weeks work experience with Chris B on here with his 350 colonies helped me a lot but learning all the time. Just helps to stop and think about the outcome you want and then act accordingly to get it.
Queen finding tip is give the frame a light shake back into the hive to get rid of 70% of the bees, she has bigger stance and seems to hold on better and is easier to spot with less bees on the frame. I couldnt do this on Tuesday as I didnt want to shake the queen cells.

 

[beeno]

Let us know how you get out of this one then come Friday!

 

[itma]

...
Queen finding tip is give the frame a light shake back into the hive to get rid of 70% of the bees, she has bigger stance and seems to hold on better and is easier to spot with less bees on the frame. I couldnt do this on Tuesday as I didnt want to shake the queen cells.

Other tip while doing an AS is to begin by moving the hive and setting up the new box (or even just the supers) on the old stand.
Flying bees will empty out of the old box (and end up at the old home position) while you get on with something else (or have a cuppa).
And then, 15/30 minutes later, go through the old box (now with rather fewer bees) to find Q more easily.

Noted that when Pete D was doing his, there weren't many bees flying, so this dodge would have been less help than usual!

 

[beeno]

Other tip while doing an AS is to begin by moving the hive and setting up the new box (or even just the supers) on the old stand.
Flying bees will empty out of the old box (and end up at the old home position) while you get on with something else (or have a cuppa).
And then, 15/30 minutes later, go through the old box (now with rather fewer bees) to find Q more easily.

Noted that when Pete D was doing his, there weren't many bees flying, so this dodge would have been less help than usual!

Thanks for this tip. Approx. what percentage reduction would you achieve by doing this?

 

[itma]

Thanks for this tip. Approx. what percentage reduction would you achieve by doing this?

Its bees - so "it depends"... !

As bees flying life is usually longer than the "three weeks" quoted for peak foraging season, and they are 3 weeks in the hive before foraging, that means that over half the bees in the colony are "flying bees". (That estimate will also be skewed by whether the queen's laying rate has been increasing or decreasing ...)
However some/many/most of the fliers should already be out on business when you call ... so ... it depends!

But in general, you'd hope that the crowds would clear quite noticeably.
And as you go through the hive looking for HMQ, more fliers will depart and go to the old place. So, the crowd will be thinning all the time.

Hey, push me for a number and I'd suggest 1/3 might go back 'home', but "it depends"!

 

[beeno]

Its bees - so "it depends"... !

As bees flying life is usually longer than the "three weeks" quoted for peak foraging season, and they are 3 weeks in the hive before foraging, that means that over half the bees in the colony are "flying bees". (That estimate will also be skewed by whether the queen's laying rate has been increasing or decreasing ...)
However some/many/most of the fliers should already be out on business when you call ... so ... it depends!

But in general, you'd hope that the crowds would clear quite noticeably.
And as you go through the hive looking for HMQ, more fliers will depart and go to the old place. So, the crowd will be thinning all the time.

Hey, push me for a number and I'd suggest 1/3 might go back 'home', but "it depends"!

Thanks itma - helpful as always!

 

[Pete D]

Hi Beeno,
updates in Red

Between the showers yesterday I had a pressing engagement with colony in a std national hive that are on OSR when the sun shines and have 10 frames of BIAS and loaded queen cells on 3 frames, they also have 2 supers 1 of which is 80% full.
I had a plan to do an AS and take a small nuc of super bees with a frame of brood and a queen cell. All the required gear was duly loaded last night and I arrived at 12.30 in my lunch break to do the simple proceedure.
First issue was the amount of bees at home due to the showers, I set the supers on the roof and the brood box was spilling over......... good luck with finding the queen I thought ! Started through the box checking for queen and queen cells, the 3 frames were marked that were loaded, this had now become 5 frames that had loaded queen cells and the additional 2 were marked. At this stage I had a nuc and a spare brood box alongside with most of the frames removed so I could put the right bits in the right places. Got right through the box and no sign of the queen, had eggs though. Went through a 2nd time this time putting frames into the nuc or brood box, still no sign.
So it ended up like this which seemed like a good idea at the time.......
6 frame Nuc box had 1 frame of pollen and stores and one of mostly capped brood that included a fairly advanced queen cell and the bees still attached with no sign of the queen, put a couple of drawn frames with small anount of stores and dummied it down after shaking 4 super frames of bees in, closed the entrance disk and took it back to the home apiary. new Queen now emerged and now have eggs
Moved 6 frames of brood and bees into a new brood box and filled the void with frames of foundation, no sign of the queen and left 2 nice queen cells, put the 2 supers on this. This stands alongside the original hive location.
Swapped places with original hive after 3 days and 2nd super added. 2nd update; Queen cells emerged and now have eggs
Left the last 3 frames including a couple of selected queen cells in the original hive added 3 drawn frames and 5 foundation but dummied down to the 6 drawn frames. Ha ha 4 x Bias and the original queen is in here
So 3 way split no queen to be found, each part of the split has queen cells and one part must have the queen. My plan is to go back on Friday and assess what develops, then I hope to be able to unite 2 parts and allow them to carry on with the OSR harvest. My thinking was that each part will not really have the resources to enable them to swarm right now, in terms of number of bees.
After driving off I remembered that I had not put the new brood with the 2 supers and most of the original brood back on the original spot, although further reflection led me to think that this was no bad thing as the flyers would go to the smaller hive so even more less likely to swarm.

So that went well
Time for reuniting now.......oh and taking the OSR honey off

 

[beeno]

Hi Pete D,
Thanks for the update. In a similar situation myself on one of my colonies. Just to make sure I understood correctly. Are you saying that the original queen tore down the queen cells and they did not swarm? Did you get a cast on the one you left two QCs in or did you tear one down? Textbook mating!

 

[nikca]

Pete,

Had almost exactly the same experience a few weeks back with a 14x12 with a super on that had 8 full 14x12 frames of BIAS and so many bees it was silly. I did most of the same moves you did as I also couldn't find the queen in the throng. I did move the box and get the flyers out as suggested but this just didn't seem to help as much as hoped!

The kicker is that after 2 more weeks (couldn't inspect due to rain and thunderstorms every day - but was trying to leave the Qc's to hatch without further handling) the original queen did a flit anyway! It took mine well over 3 weeks after hatching to get mated and come into lay however - I was in panic mode! Weather was that bad that if I hadn't fed they would have all been lost: A half full super was taken down in a day! (That is funnier if you use a Peter Kay voice)

Ah well - now have 3 colonies from 1, though that was with a re-unite (she went into my bait hive!) and the kind donation of a mega swarm from Mentor Mike (MJBee)!

Nik

 

[Pete D]

Hi Pete D,
Thanks for the update. In a similar situation myself on one of my colonies. Just to make sure I understood correctly. Are you saying that the original queen tore down the queen cells and they did not swarm? Did you get a cast on the one you left two QCs in or did you tear one down? Textbook mating!

Hi Beeno, yes the queen was in the original box as luck would have it, she only had 3 frames of bees and these were covering 3 frames of brood including the queen cells. They had loads of space and lots of work to do so I guess they decided they couldnt go anywhere so the workers tore the cells down.

No cast on the one with 2 queen cells left. As you know a cast swarm or swarms will normally go after the initial swarm which included the queen. They may of thought they had swarmed after my interfereing but probably the wrong mix of bees left behind to create cast conditions. In this instance I think the first one out killed the second cell. The 2 cells I left were probably about 5 days apart in their development stage so the first emerged would of had time time to evaluate the situation and possibly even mate before the second one had emerged.

Having now used my luck up for this swarm management season the rest will be hanging on bushes all over West Norfolk in the next couple of weeks.
My early evaluation of my swarm management for 2013 is a slight improvement on last year but that may have more to do with the bees than me. I dont think I would of been the only one caught out this year doing A/S on hives that were trying to supercede.

 

[Pete D]

Pete,

Had almost exactly the same experience a few weeks back with a 14x12 with a super on that had 8 full 14x12 frames of BIAS and so many bees it was silly. I did most of the same moves you did as I also couldn't find the queen in the throng. I did move the box and get the flyers out as suggested but this just didn't seem to help as much as hoped!

The kicker is that after 2 more weeks (couldn't inspect due to rain and thunderstorms every day - but was trying to leave the Qc's to hatch without further handling) the original queen did a flit anyway! It took mine well over 3 weeks after hatching to get mated and come into lay however - I was in panic mode! Weather was that bad that if I hadn't fed they would have all been lost: A half full super was taken down in a day! (That is funnier if you use a Peter Kay voice)

Ah well - now have 3 colonies from 1, though that was with a re-unite (she went into my bait hive!) and the kind donation of a mega swarm from Mentor Mike (MJBee)!

Nik

Hi Nik,
it seems to me that these bees know far more than us and despite our attempts of control they survive well enough with our meddling and probably better without it ! Of course if we want the honey crop we need to keep them together as long as possible and its amazing how many different versions there are for attempting to do this.......