Beginners First Year Winter Prep - done?

[einsteinagogo]

it's a follow-up to this thread...

http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=26597&page=2

Okay, so the weather this weekend has been warm, so time to complete my winter prep.

Used new OMF (open), and up-turned the entrance block (as per BBKA)

I've moved the super (half) underneath the brood box on top of floor, put back miller feeder, and glass quill, roof with kingspan.

I took the oppuntunity of weighing the super and brood box, as I was moving them, the girls were rather aggitated by all this, not surpised. A slight wind was blowing, so I cancelled the inspection of frames in super and bb, and moved onto weighing.

super (half) 17.1kg
brood box 24kg

I've weighed an empty super with frames which was 5.5kg, so therefore I estimate 11.6kg of stores, I've yet to weigh a brood box with comb, I need to recover my scales, which is currently covered with bees!

I've read I need approx 25kg of stores, so do we think I need to continue feeding, so far, I've only fed 4l of syrup.

and the feeder can be removed, just need to add a mouse guard and I think we are done....

is this correct?

 

[Cazza]

Sounds fine to me.
There will be personal variations.
For instance, I will be keeping a full size entrance with a mouse guard which will not go on until ivy is more or less done with.
Feeding more is a good idea if you are unsure. I have not started yet and am unlikely to feed very much, some hives none at all.
You forgot to say QX off, I'm sure you have done that already
Cazza

 

[itma]

Winter stores target is usually stated as about 40lb/20kg.
It ain't an exact yea/nay line.
Just yesterday I heard someone saying they wanted 35lb ....

There should be plenty Ivy to come. At those (albeit gross) weights, I'd be storing the feeder away.

If you attach a hook (anything - a screw? - but strong) to the floor, half way back on both sides, then you can weigh the hive (using a cheap luggage scale) during winter, without disturbing the bees. Just lift it a few mm. Add together the two side measurements for a hive total.
Weigh immediately before AND after any change to the hive config.
Go by the weights, but heft as well so that you know what the numbers (and remaining stores) feel like.

Glass is a rubbish insulator. Check any single glazed window in February!
Plastic is a bit better.
Sculpt the undersurface of your insulation so that it sits down tight onto the glass ...

Entrance block. BBKA? Upturning the entrance block is VERY old skool. The worry is that a carpet of dead bees could prevent bees getting in and out.
Self-fulfilling prophecy, IMHO. By making it difficult to remove corpses, you build that unhealthy carpet of dead bees - incidentally blocking the OMF.
Personally, I don't believe wasps and mice are likely to be a problem simultaneously. And I'd rather the Ivy pollen wasn't impeded/knocked off.
So I'm not mouseguarding yet.
And when I do, I'll remove the entrance block completely before fitting a full-width guard.
Last winter, one (payn poly - strange entrance) overwintered with a reduced entrance with nail stockade in the opening. No problem there either.

I dislike brood and a half, but don't understand the benefit you hope to get from shuffling the boxes at *this* time of the season.

 

[einsteinagogo]

it was really advice from this forum, stating move the super under the BB! So I did it, I did not really get an answer to, what if I don't do it! But I understood, bees move up, and was hoping next year to be back to single BB, this year was because BB got stuffed full of stores before queen started to lay...so needed to add more room, with a half. It's been difficult to inspect, and would really like to be on single bb (for a few years!).

It was the recent publication from BBKA mag, first few pages, written by a Master Beekpeer, upturn the entrance block. for that very reason, carpet of dead bees, will block the entrance.

Maybe I'll remove feeder, and remove glass quil, and replace with cover board, which has no holes, and remove entrance block.

and fix mouseguard at last minute.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Mouseguard?
When I ran normal wooden floors I made myself an entrance block mouse guard.
Normal entrance with frame pins placed bee space apart like a portcullis.
Worked very well. No mice and no knocked off pollen. You can leave them in all year if inclined.
My one wooden box now has an underfloor entrance which needs no mouse guard

 

[itma]

It was the recent publication from BBKA mag, first few pages, written by a Master Beekpeer, upturn the entrance block. for that very reason, carpet of dead bees, will block the entrance.

The BBKA news has either adopted a "Devil's Advocate" editorial policy or else senior beeks are ganging up to extract the juice.

There was the "solid floors and ventilation is better than insulation because thats what I've always used" article, and this month there was the castellations in the brood box nonsense, and using Acetic to fumigate used comb before a Bailey change (which I'd always been told was about moving bees onto NEW comb.
Didn't spot the upturned entrance block. It is definitely NOT necessary.
Bizarre that this stuff should be published, let alone by the BBKA.


I'm not the one to say anything about brood and a half, but my understanding has been that putting a super under at the end of summer was a means of getting the box properly emptied, with the bees moving the stuff up into the brood box. Not (AFAIK) the sort of thing to do with a shallow box full of capped stores. The other time people seem to shuffle the shallow under is at the end of winter, before Q starts laying in the shallow ...
But there are brood & half experts aplenty on here that can speak to that subject better (I shudder at the thought of the things!)
End of September seems wrong time and doing it with a full (11.5kg stores?) box sounds wrong to me

Given that your bees do seem unusually prolific and productive, you probably should be thinking of multi-brood (suggest double) for next year, rather than trying to keep them in single. However, that needn't be for now.


Erica is describing the type of guard I made for my Payn Poly (mentioned above). It worked - right way up!

 

[enrico]

If your bb has enough stores there is no need for a super, however... If there are not enough then a super of capped or uncapped frames will be of use. If you want them to take the stores into the bb then they will remove uncapped and if you 'bruise' the capped they will move that too. Bruise means rubbing the flat of your hive tool over the cappings to damage them.
You can just leave the super under the bb and they will use those stores first, moving up to conserve warmth as they need to. When they reach the top, if stores are all gone you obviously then need to feed from the top.... Probably fondant.
In any account, at some point the super will be empty and you can remove it.... Or leave it if you want to remain on brood and a half. Hope that helps! That's how I do it!
E

 

[einsteinagogo]

The BBKA news has either adopted a "Devil's Advocate" editorial policy or else senior beeks are ganging up to extract the juice.

There was the "solid floors and ventilation is better than insulation because thats what I've always used" article, and this month there was the castellations in the brood box nonsense, and using Acetic to fumigate used comb before a Bailey change (which I'd always been told was about moving bees onto NEW comb.
Didn't spot the upturned entrance block. It is definitely NOT necessary.
Bizarre that this stuff should be published, let alone by the BBKA.


I'm not the one to say anything about brood and a half, but my understanding has been that putting a super under at the end of summer was a means of getting the box properly emptied, with the bees moving the stuff up into the brood box. Not (AFAIK) the sort of thing to do with a shallow box full of capped stores. The other time people seem to shuffle the shallow under is at the end of winter, before Q starts laying in the shallow ...
But there are brood & half experts aplenty on here that can speak to that subject better (I shudder at the thought of the things!)
End of September seems wrong time and doing it with a full (11.5kg stores?) box sounds wrong to me

Given that your bees do seem unusually prolific and productive, you probably should be thinking of multi-brood (suggest double) for next year, rather than trying to keep them in single. However, that needn't be for now.


Erica is describing the type of guard I made for my Payn Poly (mentioned above). It worked - right way up!

Thanks for your comments and advice.

Page 4, BBKA October 2013

In the Apiray: Winter Prep

Reduce the Entrance Size
entrance blocked turned so is at the top...

I also read with interest castellations in the brood box, which I thought was interesting, having removed them from all my bbs, I inherited at the start of the year!

A few non-local beeks, have suggested I live in an area with Commerical Beekeepers, which are using italian queens, I'm not sure where these hives are located, but have suggested this could have been a prime swarm from one of their colonies. - not sure if this is true. But they have been very productive, and there are still too many bees, to fit in the bb.

 

[einsteinagogo]

If your bb has enough stores there is no need for a super, however... If there are not enough then a super of capped or uncapped frames will be of use. If you want them to take the stores into the bb then they will remove uncapped and if you 'bruise' the capped they will move that too. Bruise means rubbing the flat of your hive tool over the cappings to damage them.
You can just leave the super under the bb and they will use those stores first, moving up to conserve warmth as they need to. When they reach the top, if stores are all gone you obviously then need to feed from the top.... Probably fondant.
In any account, at some point the super will be empty and you can remove it.... Or leave it if you want to remain on brood and a half. Hope that helps! That's how I do it!
E

thanks for your comments.

current weights of boxes...

super (half) 17.1kg
brood box 24kg

I estimated from empty super of frames, 11kg in super, not sure what a bb weighs with wax?

I'll remedy entrance, and cover board but have a selection here

is it best to use

1. coverboard with no hole
2. standard cover board with two feeder holes
3. coverboard with single drill hole
4. glass quill?

I usually put on glass and then coverboard with no hole. kingspan/roof.

just thinking future, if I need to add fondant, but I assume, it may not matter, as I would have to remove coverboard and add eek, fondant goes on top of frames?

 

[enrico]

The bees will fit in the space you give them. To say there are too many for a bb may be a bit of a guess! But I understand your concern. Do what you feel is right or you and your bees, nothing you have suggested is 'wrong' . It is just that some of us do things differently! Try different things and see what works or you! Good luck
E

 

[Margaret Elisabeth]

I will be putting a super under the BB when the girls stop flying(still warm here).
Last year I left a full super on top and the queen was laying before I expected it. Probably because it is a little warmer afew inches higher up. Of course when I went in to have a look the brood area was split between the BB and the super. So when I took it off it upset them and the whole brood was disturbed. I am thinking of maybe going double brood to give them expansion room and avoid the swarm like mad mode when the colony builds up.

 

[REDWOOD]

A 14x12 BB is a lot easier to manage than a B + 1/2, although they don't half fill it before moving into the supers

 

[Cazza]

It can be very helpful to keep a glass quilt on, especially if you are a novice. You can take a quick peek over Winter and see where the bees are. This gives you an idea of state of stores. If you insulate well over the quilt, you should not have problems with condensation.

Cazza

 

[Erichalfbee]

A 14x12 BB is a lot easier to manage than a B + 1/2,

Until you have to go to 14 x 12 and a shallow

 

[itma]

It can be very helpful to keep a glass quilt on, especially if you are a novice. You can take a quick peek over Winter and see where the bees are. This gives you an idea of state of stores. If you insulate well over the quilt, you should not have problems with condensation.

Cazza

My point earlier was that see-through plastic is much better than glass during the winter and that both (glass most particularly emphatically) benefit (glass absolutely requires) really good, well-fitted insulation.

Absolutely agree that being able to see them, and check what they might be up to WITHOUT opening them up completely is terribly valuable.

However glass is a heat leak and so to talk of it as a "quilt" might accord with pre-WW2 beekeeping terminology, but conveys entirely the wrong set of word-associations.

 

[Cazza]

However glass is a heat leak and so to talk of it as a "quilt" might accord with pre-WW2 beekeeping terminology, but conveys entirely the wrong set of word-associations.

I would call it that because I was taught by a preWW2 beekeeper. It may convey those associations if you know no better, I agree. However, I shall continue to call it a glass quilt out of tradition.
Cazza

 

[einsteinagogo]

so would a piece of perspex cut to size do as a cover, I could get one cut at work?

 

[itma]

so would a piece of perspex cut to size do as a cover, I could get one cut at work?

Should be better than glass. For standard bottom beespace national, you'll need a beespace rim. I use B&Q pine strip, nominally 10.5mm square. Seems fine. Very cheap.
You want the perspex to hardly sag at all. So firmly fixing the rim to the plastic should help. 3mm Polycarbonate is the usual - but as long as it isn't bearing weight it should be fine for Perspex.
460mm square for the national, no hole.
And if you don't put a rim on the top, then a 460mm square of celotex will fit snugly and simply against the perspex.

 

[drstitson]

"I use B&Q pine strip, nominally 10.5mm square. Seems fine. Very cheap. "

21x9 better IMHO.

 

[itma]

...
And if you don't put a rim on the top, then a 460mm square of celotex will fit snugly and simply against the perspex.

But if you do put a rim on the top, make it taller than your Celotex thickness.
Protects the insulation nicely, and you can just flip the board over for an instant fondant-feeding (or Apiguard) eke. One less thing to bother about with an out-apiary!

I was surprised that the "10mm" beespace works so well. "9mm" ought to be better, but in practice ... it doesn't seem to matter
However, drstitson's wider rim would probably give better insulation.