Bees under OMF (Thorne's Budget floors!)

[einsteinagogo]

First time, I've seen or come across this, although last year a colony did build comb under the OMF floor, but then must have moved up into the bb, later in the season. (only discovered when changing floors and moving!).

back to question....

I was down at the apiary this AM, and noticed, a few bees coming out from under the floor, which are Thorne's budget floors, the hives are on hive stands. (and not on concrete slabs).

I looked under both floors, and there are a typical "swarm" lumps hanging down.

Both these colonies were AS-ed, with original queen, on foundation, and a single brood frame, QE, and three supers.

Until I look in the brood box, it will be clearer, at present, there are two clumps of bees under the floors.

Could be

1. swarms?
2. missed a QC?

So assuming I find no eggs, larva, capped brood in the BB, I just put all the bees back in the bb ? - are they going to stay put, or find a nicer place under the OMF....

If I have laying queen, eggs, etc it's a swarm, and do normal swarm routine...

It's just awkard where it is...not sure I'll get a box under there...and it may be easier to shake bees off, than brush or hit them off into a box..

Just going over the logistics of this, because to remove the clumps of bees, I've got to remove, roof, cover board, supers, excluder, bb, to get to the floor, to remove gently to shake the bees in a swarm box, or national and floor....

and then either drop them back in their hive, or new hive etc

Comments from the Experienced among you which have done this.

I've read this would appear to be common issues with confused bees and Thornes budget floor.... and block the underneath... would a solid floor be better as a temp measure, or stopping them come back, or screen the sides, or insert inspection board.

Entrance block fully open, so either queen in bundle, or lots of bees, or swarm..

 

[dn170221]

Things might be clearer when you look inside.
It may help to have a second pair of hands. If you have a spare floor lift what is above the current floor on to the spare and then that leaves you to work the cluster in peace although it would be better to move the cluster to one side and put the hive back for returning foragers.

If there is much comb check for eggs and a queen for that reason a queen clip may help.

I know someone who had this situation and used the floor as a crown board, then a box underneath super or brood to fit comb and then a QX and then a brood box with the queen.

Good luc let us know what you find!

 

[einsteinagogo]

Things might be clearer when you look inside.
It may help to have a second pair of hands. If you have a spare floor lift what is above the current floor on to the spare and then that leaves you to work the cluster in peace although it would be better to move the cluster to one side and put the hive back for returning foragers.

If there is much comb check for eggs and a queen for that reason a queen clip may help.

I know someone who had this situation and used the floor as a crown board, then a box underneath super or brood to fit comb and then a QX and then a brood box with the queen.

Good luc let us know what you find!

thanks, I think lifting a bb, plus three supers might be a challenge for two people!

lots of spare kit,. floors, roofs, etc

 

[Gilberdyke John]

thanks, I think lifting a bb, plus three supers might be a challenge for two people!

lots of spare kit,. floors, roofs, etc

If you need a hand you've got my number Andy. Can't be Saturday though as it's BABKA honey picnic day.
(I was in Pocklington yesterday afternoon at Burnby Hall)

 

[einsteinagogo]

If you need a hand you've got my number Andy. Can't be Saturday though as it's BABKA honey picnic day.
(I was in Pocklington yesterday afternoon at Burnby Hall)

Thanks for the offer of assistance.

Andy

 

[Nige.Coll]

Sometimes putting them back into the hive works but that depends on the circumstances.
Sometimes they go straight back under the omf.
I've had this with swarms and newly mated queens, the swarms go back under the floor the newly mated queens don't in my experience.
You may need to put the inspection board under for a while as they will search for the pheromone trail.
They will also quite happily move under the hive next door if they are close so put the inspection board under the hives close to it to stop them.

Take a spare floor if you can as you may find some lovely comb built off the mesh and its a bugger to shift.

The last one I used a shallow box and a piece of correx to scrape them into the box. Wasnt lifting a double brood and 4 supers around.
It seems to happen to me with one colony and its descendants, dark local mongrels the others dont do it and they all have the same floors.

 

[einsteinagogo]

Sometimes putting them back into the hive works but that depends on the circumstances.
Sometimes they go straight back under the omf.
I've had this with swarms and newly mated queens, the swarms go back under the floor the newly mated queens don't in my experience.
You may need to put the inspection board under for a while as they will search for the pheromone trail.
They will also quite happily move under the hive next door if they are close so put the inspection board under the hives close to it to stop them.

Take a spare floor if you can as you may find some lovely comb built off the mesh and its a bugger to shift.

The last one I used a shallow box and a piece of correx to scrape them into the box. Wasnt lifting a double brood and 4 supers around.
It seems to happen to me with one colony and its descendants, dark local mongrels the others dont do it and they all have the same floors.

thanks for some of the ideas.

Interesting about colonies, these two colonies, the queens are related they are sisters. (maybe a trait I don't want!).

I have got spare floors, for me to inspect the bb, for queen, I've got to remove all the supers anyway, so, depending what I find - I'm almost there...

I do have other hives next door on OMF, I'll make a note of that.

I may change these over to solid floor, and take away the OMF for cleaning.

I'll make up a plan.....

Thanks for response.

 

[Nige.Coll]

It beats hunting in a hedge for a swarm. If they all just went under the hive it would be so easy lol.

Sent from my HTC One_M8 using Tapatalk

 

[itma]

In this case, it doesn't sound like being a Thorne budget floor is relevant to the problem.

They do have a different issue with drawing pins falling out and the mesh then sagging to open up a second entrance - but that ain't your problem!
The cure for the saggy mesh is to just staple it in place, rather than use drawing pins to 'secure' it.

 

[Gilberdyke John]

It beats hunting in a hedge for a swarm. If they all just went under the hive it would be so easy lol.

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I seem to specialise (not by choice) in blackthorn, hawthorn or honeysuckle. Oddly honeysuckle is harder work because it grows intertwined and it's clip, clip, clip to get bits out.

 

[Nige.Coll]

Mine are thornes budget floors but I have a 3 inch piece of wood at the front that the floor sits flush with and landing boards. Those 2 hives still go under the floor lol.
Had a look and both now have laying queens so it must have been a returning queen from a mating flight.

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[enrico]

I keep,saying this but OMF are the cause. If the front of the hive has any gap between entrance and floor the bees may find their way in under the floor. Once a few have done it more and more get in and think this is part of the hive. Why wouldn't they, they can see all their mates above them, to them it is just like a QE but they can't get through it. Two things happen, this becomes part of the hive with flying bees returning back under the OMF or they get cold and weak and die, sometimes after a cold night you will see clusters of bees crawling round, too weak to fly, just dieing slowly. After a while you might even get comb under the OMF where they have accepted this as part of the hive. It happens more frequently than you realise! The front must be blocked off to stop this. Ok occasionally there is a small swarm underneath but most of the time, just lost bees who think they are home!
E

 

[MuswellMetro]

Things might be clearer when you look inside.
It may help to have a second pair of hands. If you have a spare floor lift what is above the current floor on to the spare and then that leaves you to work the cluster in peace although it would be better to move the cluster to one side and put the hive back for returning foragers.

If there is much comb check for eggs and a queen for that reason a queen clip may help.

I know someone who had this situation and used the floor as a crown board, then a box underneath super or brood to fit comb and then a QX and then a brood box with the queen.

Good luc let us know what you find!

just had to do the floor as a crown board over a brood box method as my clipped queen swarmed and she and a few bees set up home under the original floor

once they are settled i will wire the wild comb into some frames

 

[Nige.Coll]

I keep,saying this but OMF are the cause. If the front of the hive has any gap between entrance and floor the bees may find their way in under the floor.
E

Mine don't have a gap and they still do it.

 

[BeeJayBee]

Mine don't have a gap and they still do it.

Once they start doing it they end up attracting others to the underside of the omf.

If you give them a landing board that goes down to the ground they're unlikely to fly under the entrance by mistake.

 

[Nige.Coll]

They have landing boards but not to the ground.
Why is it that only the colonies from those queens do it when all the others have exactly the same set up ?
When these hives swarm it looks like the hive has been sick. A pile of bees on the floor infront of the hive that makes it's way under the omf.
I dont clip.
The others don't do this and if they swarm I find them on a thistle or a tree or fence as normal.
Saying its the way the hive is built doesn't fit what happens or all of them would do it as the stands and floors are all the same. Has to be something with those bees as they are the only ones that behave like this.

Someone suggested it was because of the colonies being so large and the bearding bees stopped the queen getting back in the entrance but I have no idea on that one.
I dont mind it as I know where they are and what's happening now.

 

[enrico]

Bees from one hive always seem to swarm in the same place, maybe they can smell past pheromones. I generally know which hive the swarm has come from just be where the swarm goes! Maybe that is what is happening when they go under the hive. Who knows!
E

 

[beekake]

I keep,saying this but OMF are the cause. If the front of the hive has any gap between entrance and floor the bees may find their way in under the floor. Once a few have done it more and more get in and think this is part of the hive. Why wouldn't they, they can see all their mates above them, to them it is just like a QE but they can't get through it. Two things happen, this becomes part of the hive with flying bees returning back under the OMF or they get cold and weak and die, sometimes after a cold night you will see clusters of bees crawling round, too weak to fly, just dieing slowly. After a while you might even get comb under the OMF where they have accepted this as part of the hive. It happens more frequently than you realise! The front must be blocked off to stop this. Ok occasionally there is a small swarm underneath but most of the time, just lost bees who think they are home!
E

Could it also have something to do with the size of the entrance? I discovered this behaviour for the first time today in one of my colonies. It is a big colony, but I decided ages ago to keep the entrance small. There is nearly always a cluster of bees around it, and sometimes the bees cover quite an area on the front of the hive. I was putting the inspection board in today to do a summer varroa count, only to meet resistance before I heard the soft thud of a cluster of bees hitting the floor beneath the hive! In all my other hives, the entrance is open wide and there is never a problem.

 

[einsteinagogo]

Just coming back to this, to update the thread, for closure....both colonies the same...

I discovered, no queen in the bb, the frame which had the QC, had emerged, so I can only assume the virgin queen, flew and mated, and returned and missed, and went under the OMF.

There was wild comb, under the OMF with larva, some stores, so the new queen had started to lay. I removed comb, and using rubber bands and frames moved into bb.

As a test, one colony I've now put on a solid floor, as a temp measure, and the other hive on OMF.

Not a single bee under the solid floor, some under the OMF, will keep checking, and look at closing all holes under hives, and maybe using landing boards.

 

[user 6228]

If you have OMF and are doing a major operation
E.g. AS
Housing a swarm etc
put a sheet of black correx under the hive and cover the floor varroa tray gap .

After a few days you can remove it.