Bees breaking down sealed Queen Cells

[PurleyRoyal]

Can anyone advise why bees should build and seal Queen Cells and then break them down again?

At the weekend we carried out a regular inspection of our hive and found three sealed Queen Cells, which set our alarm bells ringing. Being newbies of six weeks we made contact with our Mentor who carried out his own inspection of our hive this morning. We found that two of the three cells had disappeared without trace and one was in the process of being broken down.

Our Mentor was unsure why this should happen and suggested that we post it on a forum and canvas opinion on what is happening and why.

Our Mentor thought that overall the colony looked healthy and as usual they remained well mannered.

The bees originate from an over wintered Nuc with last years queen.

Three weeks ago we found an uncapped Queen Cell with a larvae that was being fed. The following week it was gone?

 

[wightbees]

Have you added lots more room? Foundation?

 

[PurleyRoyal]

Lots of room - 3 foundation frames in the brood box - untouched. 1 Super with 5 frames being worked and 7 frames spare.

 

[Hivemaker.]

Lots of room - 3 foundation frames in the brood box - untouched. 1 Super with 5 frames being worked and 7 frames spare.

Would be better to let them draw all the foundation in the brood box before adding the super.

 

[pargyle]

Would be better to let them draw all the foundation in the brood box before adding the super.

Yes ... and probably the reason why they are drawing queen cells ... too little queen pheremones spreading through the hive so part of the 'committee' thinks they are devoid of a queen - she may even have gone up into the super if you don't have a queen excluder on - then they realise they have a queen .. and tear them down. Too much space is as bad for a colony as too little - tell me you don't have a gaping hole in the crown board as well ?

 

[Erichalfbee]

I think folk have to understand that foundation frames are not room

 

[bjosephd]

I think folk have to understand that foundation frames are not room

(I haven't read this thread fully... but...)

...if a queen runs out of space because, say, she is confined in a brood chamber with only foundation and they aren't drawing enough comb quick enough, could that potentially lead to supercedure?

One would normally suppose it would lead to swarming, but maybe they could interpret the slowing in laying as a failing queen

(slightly off topic, but if this is the case then I might have a nice supercedure cell I could move to a nuc!)

 

[Teemore]

The bees simply changed their mind about raising new queens.
When the weather turns cold and wet with little or no opportunity for foraging, you will often encounter signs that a colony has made advanced swarm preparations to the extent of raising new queens and then breaking down capped queen cells. I have also encountered broken down queen cells when and where a heavy nectar flow kicks in.
Rest assured the bees are doing what they want.

 

[maddydog]

Doesn't sound much of a queen (and therefore colony) to me. An over-wintered nuc in your part of the world should be bursting with bees and easily drawn out the remaining few frames of foundation by now.

Might be worth evaluating the bigger picture: queen quality, hive location & materials, available forage etc.

 

[REDWOOD]

Lots of possible scenarios why the QCs were removed. one being that the queens have hatched.

Were the QCs play cups?

 

[PurleyRoyal]

The hive has a queen excluder and the she was spotted in the brood box during both the recent inspections. We do have a crown board on top of the super and both holes have bee escapes fitted.

 

[REDWOOD]

Your bees could be thinking of supersedure, if the queen is not laying enough eggs because of the lack of drawn cells. How many frames of brood do they have, do they have stores?

 

[PurleyRoyal]

They have 8 frames in the brood box

 

[bjosephd]

Your bees could be thinking of supersedure, if the queen is not laying enough eggs because of the lack of drawn cells. How many frames of brood do they have, do they have stores?

This is, I think, what I inadvertently caused wth a demaree, but putting the queen on only foundation below the excluder.

I think tomorrow I will ('mating') nuc the queen cell... remove the excluders from the original boxes and see what happens. If they supersede again then fine. Either way, I get a nice new queen (or two) from a nice queen.

 

[pargyle]

The hive has a queen excluder and the she was spotted in the brood box during both the recent inspections. We do have a crown board on top of the super and both holes have bee escapes fitted.

Take the bee escapes out and put a tile or a piece of plywood over the holes.

 

[Millet]

Where they "really" Queen cells.

 

[PurleyRoyal]

Things have moved on..............................

Yesterday went for my routine evening check down the allotment to talk to the plants and check the bees and found a swarm of bees in the grass a few yards away from the hive. The queen is clipped so was never going to get far.

We managed to get the bees into a nuc box. Fortunately the bees knew exactly what to do as were making it up as we went along. Unfortunately we could not get hold of my mentor.

I did speak to him later and we agreed what to do next, which we did this morning.

We have taken a couple of partially drawn frames from the original hive and placed them in the nuc box together with 3 further frames, and replaced the frames with new in the Hive.

The bees in the nuc seemed quite happy and did not seem to mind the brief disturbance. If the bees stay put we will feed them in a couple of days.

The bees in the hive however seemed to be a bit more grumpy than usual. That may be because they had no queen? or because that is the third time they have been opened up since Sunday? We did not hang around to check the hive status that is a job for another day.

Was surprised by the number of bees in the Nuc and remaining in the hive, we had more bees than I thought!

Time now for the day job............

 

[Swarm]

Now you see how novices are often convinced their bees haven't swarmed because there are 'still loads of bees'.

 

[PurleyRoyal]

Now you see how novices are often convinced their bees haven't swarmed because there are 'still loads of bees'.

Yes to be honest if I had not seen the swarm, I am not sure I would have picked up the bee numbers had significantly changed. I would have wondered though why they where a bit grumpy!

There is a lot more to this Beekeeping than you think. You just start to think you have a grasp / understanding of whats happening and then something happens and you quickly realise you are still a newbie who has much to learn!

 

[wightbees]

You need to consider more swarming if you have left all the QC in the main hive?