bee space

[alanf]

The thing is I have started out and didn't know about this top/bottom bee space issue. Now I will at some stage convert my broods to top bee space.

It's not an issue for over 90% of beekeepers, maybe 99%, they simply choose a design and use it as supplied. Managing one pile of spares is far easier than two; mixing in the same stack gives either double or no beespace at some point so you need to have and transport spares of every variant that you might use. The big advantage of keeping to one format as supplied is exactly that; you can buy spares from anywhere, store them flat pack, lend or borrow them as needed without having to get the router out every time. That applies to National bottom space, Langstroth top space or any other design. If you start converting you're practically committed to modifying the kit you buy every time or waiting for special orders. It adds more delays in addition to deliveries or pick up and knocking kits together when you're in a hurry.

There's nothing to stop you adopting the alternative top/bottom space for one off bits that don't form part of the usual stacks. I made national size nuc boxes with top space because it made the crown boards simple sheets that could be ply, correx, insulation sheets or feeders.

There are advantages for the larger operators in Langstroth, but previous threads on here have tended to stress it's the ability to get cheap bulk supplies of the kit from Europe rather than top space that swings it. If there is a real speed advantage in top space the one that makes sense is that it's less fussy about seating all the frames perfectly. That saves a few seconds here and there not cleaning wax and propolis before reassembling. Time adds up for hundreds of hives, but is insignificant for most of us.

 

[victor meldrew]

Bees like to extend their comb downwards when given the opportunity . On the face of it when placing a box on top of another box a top bee space hive appears to afford room to place box with ease,however the elongated comb, not visible from the top.can squash/drown the bees in honey.
As previously stated, it's up to the beekeeper to take care whether hive is top or bottom bee space
VM

 

[local_beekeeper]

Langstroth top bee space.

 

[itma]

Sorry should have said Nationals (whicj I use) are supplied bottom bee space. That is correct isn't it? The thing is I have started out and didn't know about this top/bottom bee space issue. Now I will at some stage convert my broods to top bee space.

If you use TBS broods, you need to use them with TBS supers.
Important thing is NOT to mix and match. If you have both types, they need to clearly identified - so you don't accidentally mix them.
Keeping two types may mean you need to double your 'spare' equipment!


/ If they get mixed up, you'll have double beespace on one hive and zero beespace on another. Both recipes for making inspections 'tricky'.

 

[victor meldrew]

Langstroth top bee space.

Nationals bottom bees space. Your point sir ?
VM

 

[Little John]

It isn't just a choice between Bottom Bee Space OR Top Bee Space ...

If you take a look at Herman Van de Kerkof's designs, you'll see he adopts a less polarised XOR approach (aka hedging his bets) - using a 1/4" Top Space with 1/8" Bottom Space - adding up of course to 3/8" total Bee Space.

Well - it's another way of achieving the same result ...

LJ

 

[BeeJayBee]

Langstroth top bee space.

Your point sir ?

Well, they are, aren't they? Most of them, anyway. Same as most Nationals are bottom bee space and some are hybrids.

 

[Hivemaker.]

Same as most Nationals are top bee space

The other way round.

 

[BeeJayBee]

The other way round.

I didn't say that, did I?



Yes I did - tired, I guess! Edited.

 

[farbee]

If you use TBS broods, you need to use them with TBS supers.
Important thing is NOT to mix and match. If you have both types, they need to clearly identified - so you don't accidentally mix them.
Keeping two types may mean you need to double your 'spare' equipment!


/ If they get mixed up, you'll have double beespace on one hive and zero beespace on another. Both recipes for making inspections 'tricky'.

Was thinking of using a framed wire queen exluder to get arround this problem.

 

[itma]

Was thinking of using a framed wire queen exluder to get arround this problem.

But the frame will provide yet another beespace.

Just using the framed qx would be simpler than converting your brood box only (and then using an unframed, rigid qx).
The framed qx (and/or a framed, especially see-through, crown board) provides a nice beespace above the topbars (on a bbs box) ... it is a compromise that is adequate for many - me included!

 

[alanf]

Was thinking of using a framed wire queen exluder to get arround this problem.

Yes, a framed excluder adds another beespace which gets round the no bee space problem. But it's not always appropriate to use an excluder, going into winter with a super of stores over a brood box for instance. And there is still the double bee space problem when a top space box is under a bottom space (adapted deep national under a standard national super). Some strains build more brace comb than others, but a two bee space gap is always going to have more than a one bee space gap,

And are you always going to have the right number of framed excluders exactly where you need them? And take the time to think about which is the right way round every time? Every design that you can buy off the shelf chooses either top space or bottom space and applies it to all the boxes. If you want to do it differently, that's entirely your choice but it's always going to be a minority option.

 

[farbee]

But the frame will provide yet another beespace.

Just using the framed qx would be simpler than converting your brood box only (and then using an unframed, rigid qx).
The framed qx (and/or a framed, especially see-through, crown board) provides a nice beespace above the topbars (on a bbs box) ... it is a compromise that is adequate for many - me included!

So a framed queen exluder seems the simplest solution then. Will put than on the wish list for next season.

 

[farbee]

Yes, a framed excluder adds another beespace which gets round the no bee space problem. But it's not always appropriate to use an excluder, going into winter with a super of stores over a brood box for instance. And there is still the double bee space problem when a top space box is under a bottom space (adapted deep national under a standard national super). Some strains build more brace comb than others, but a two bee space gap is always going to have more than a one bee space gap,

And are you always going to have the right number of framed excluders exactly where you need them? And take the time to think about which is the right way round every time? Every design that you can buy off the shelf chooses either top space or bottom space and applies it to all the boxes. If you want to do it differently, that's entirely your choice but it's always going to be a minority option.

Yes thsnks for pointing this out. The devil is in the detail, some more thought needed.

 

[For want of a better word]

Don't have Q/Es glued down to frame top bars with top bee space.

Use a 9mm eke under the qe on a bottom spaced bb, bees can run around on top then!

I have used both and seem to make no real difference to bees and it seems awfully pedantic to suggest otherwise !