Bee space and frames

[Levitt53]

I've read loads and know about bee space. My understanding was that frames fit tightly into brood boxes and supers to allowing the appropriate space to occur naturally. However my brood box and super (which I haven't used yet) have 11 frames in them with spacers and there is additional space in both. I've read posts on here that talk about starting with 11 frames and reducing down to 10 or 9 in different circumstances and I'm confused about this whole area now and presume this is all important. I've not found an explanation in any books or a simple definitive explanation on the Internet. Can someone point me in the direction of a good explanation as I feel I've missed something important here. TIA.

 

[bjosephd]

Did you find this one?

http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/bsp.html

Might not be quite what you're looking for… but interesting all the same.

BJD

 

[Levitt53]

Thanks, I had seen this website but hadn't read that page. It doesn't explain how you use this in practice though and that is what is confusing me. Should I just try and equally space the frames I have? If I do that why do I have the plastic spacers, or is it assumed that I am using a dummy frame as there is probably room for one?

 

[linoleum bonypart]

Levitt.....as the bees fill the honey supers they get thicker and thicker thereby needing less frames in a box over time...where's as brood frames tend to keep to proper bee space

 

[Levitt53]

So I just take frames out of the super as I feel they need more space. What about the space that is in my brood frame. I expected they would all fit snugly but they don't.

 

[Erichalfbee]

What I do is start a super of foundation frames on Hoffman space...11... with castellated spacers, to get them drawn evenly
I extract these as normal then put ten of those frames in a super with a ten space castellation.
I don't like 9 space but that's just a personal opinion

What about the space that is in my brood frame. I expected they would all fit snugly but they don't.

They should be snug.
Push them together and follow with a dummy board

 

[pargyle]

So I just take frames out of the super as I feel they need more space. What about the space that is in my brood frame. I expected they would all fit snugly but they don't.

The space is there for a reason ..the dummy frame goes in at the end so the bees think its the end wall of the hive, when you do inspections you take the dummy frame out first (it's easier to draw a plywood blank out than a frame of comb) you then have space to lever the next frame into and break the inevitable propolis seal. You can then lift the frame out more easily and you put it back in so leaving a bit of space to get the next frame out.

 

[Hivemaker.]

The space is there for a reason ..

Yes...because of using the incorrect spacing, instead of the spacing the hive was originally designed for.

 

[Levitt53]

Ok that makes complete sense for the brood box. I have plastic spacers but having now googled exactly what castellated spacers are I see it is those I need for the super. Thanks all makes sense now. More shopping!

 

[wessexmario]

Ok that makes complete sense for the brood box. I have plastic spacers but having now googled exactly what castellated spacers are I see it is those I need for the super. Thanks all makes sense now. More shopping!

You can use the plastic spacers instead of castellations in the supers.

It's really a matter of preference how you achieve the bee space,
Some beeks prefer being able to slide frames apart before lifting them, some prefer castellations which enforce the spacing more rigorously.

If you use the spacers, then make sure you press all the frames together, just a millimetre or two gap between frame side bars will ensure the bees propolise up the gap, if you use castellations then you'll not be able to slide frames apart, so if they draw the combs right out and/or they're curvy instead of being perfectly flat it's easy to roll bees as you lift the frames.
You can get different size spacers as well as different spaced castellations, the spacers being a bit easier to swap or mix and match.
There's no right or wrong, it's really down to what works for you and your bees.

 

[BeeJayBee]

However my brood box and super (which I haven't used yet) have 11 frames in them with spacers and there is additional space in both.

Are these brand new frames or are they second hand, and used? If they're second hand you might be better off buying some new hoffman frames, they're much easier to use because they're self-spacing.

 

[Magwat]

When the bees draw out the comb they make the cells the appropriate depth to leave the correct space between the faces of adjacent combs. The brood cells need to be the correct depth for the developing brood so the frame spacing in the brood box is important.
The frames can be spaced more widely for honey and the bees will draw out the cells to a greater depth to leave the desired bee space between the faces of the combs - the deeper cells hold more honey which is why some beekeepers go for the wider spacing in the supers. You do however need to start with the frames closer together (11 or 10) before moving on to 9 otherwise the bees get creative with the wax drawing. I hope that makes sense.

 

[Levitt53]

Hi thanks all, yes that does make sense. The ones I was talking about are brand new. However I also have a second hand set which has a 10 frame castellation inside the super. I've now also got a hive with a super full of what seems like very efficient bees (yay at last!). I've only had that a couple of days so haven't looked inside yet. Planning an inspection with the beekeeper later this week so I'll discuss it with her as well.

 

[SavvySalli]

Bee space & frame types

There's no mention here of the frame types? I have SN frames in the brood box but just received a nuc and they're on DNs so now I need plastic ends so that the bee space is correct. I liked the SNs for some strange reason and my whole stock is SN, even though I have castellated supers - bit unnecessary I see now reading above as of course the SN design regulates the spacing.

If the frames are fixed, 10 in a super then surely if they're full or brace comb's being built, then another super's needed rather than decreasing the number of frames?

I'm not clear on why less frames are used.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

There's no mention here of the frame types? I have SN frames in the brood box but just received a nuc and they're on DNs so now I need plastic ends so that the bee space is correct. I liked the SNs for some strange reason and my whole stock is SN, even though I have castellated supers - bit unnecessary I see now reading above as of course the SN design regulates the spacing.

If the frames are fixed, 10 in a super then surely if they're full or brace comb's being built, then another super's needed rather than decreasing the number of frames?

I'm not clear on why less frames are used.

I think you are confused here as to terminology 'SN' just means 'shallow National' and DN just means Deep. So you wouldn't use SN's in the brood box regardless - it's the number after SN or DN which determines whether they are straight sided, self spacing (Hoffmans) or have wider top bars.

DN1, DN2, SN1 and SN2 have straight side bars so these frames will have to be spaced. DN4, DN5, SN4 and SN5 have Hoffman side bars so are self spacing. DN2, DN5, SN2 and SN5 have slightly wider top bars

and Manley's are just Manleys - other hive formats don't have all this complicated classifications

 

[Motobiman]

And with my very limited experience I already prefer DN4 and a dummy board so I can slide the frames across for inspections.

Not got any supers yet so can't comment on the frame handling for them but I have made up a couple of narrow dummy boards anyway JIC.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

If the frames are fixed, 10 in a super then surely if they're full or brace comb's being built, then another super's needed rather than decreasing the number of frames?

I'm not clear on why less frames are used.

Not clear at all are you? I'll try and explain.

If you use Hoffman self spacers you will get eleven frames tightly spaced in the super. If you use castellations you have a choice of eleven, ten, nine or even eight!
If you slap an empty box on top of the hive, the bees will go bonkers in the space and draw comb willy nilly all over the place as there is nothing to constrain them now, if you plop a box full of just foundationed frames on it depends - if they are spaces eleven to a box, they are pretty constrained so they will just draw comb nicely on the foundation and everything will be neat and tidy (most of the time!!) - if you space foundationed frames wider, you may, on a good flow get away with it but usually, again they will get creative and you get comb drawn willy nilly all over the place.
Once you have comb drawn on eleven spaced frames in the super, some beekeepers will take one frame away and space the frames further apart - this has some good features - less frames per box means deeper comb on each frame thus more honey and less comb to cap thus less wax 'wasted'- also less frames to uncap and extract which, when you have a shedfull to do saves a little time.
Brace comb is just mess and waste

 

[enrico]

I will explain what I do which may or may not help. I use DN 1 frames in my brood with plastic spacers. I put in as many as the brood box allows and push them tight to one end. I have never had a problem with the extra space at the other end which is generally used for food or not used at all. This allows me to take that frame out first when doing inspections without 'rolling' the bees. I prefer plastic spacers because I can see which bees I am going to squash where as with Hoffman frames I can't see if the queen is trapped between them. My choice.
With the supers I again use DN 1 with plastic spacers. There are two types of spacers, narrow ones which give a proper bee space in the brood and which you should use with new foundation in the super. Next year when you are using drawn foundation in the super you can use wide spacers. This allows the bees to build the comb out further and produce more honey for less wax. You can use wide spacers instead of narrow ones as you can overlap them by pushing each alternative one further down the top bar, then when you need to widen the gap you remove a few frames and push the wide spacers so that they touch.
It is really all a question of preference and experience.
I hope this helps
E

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

have SN frames in the brood box but just received a nuc and they're on DNs so now I need plastic ends so that the bee space is correct. I liked the SNs for some strange reason and my whole stock is SN,.

What you really mean is you have self spacing (Hoffman) frames and would prefer to keep to that (nothing wrong there - Using Hoffmans is really sensible in the brood box IMHO) Rather than putting plastic frame spacers on every brood frame to match with the ones in the nuc, you only have to put them on the Hoffman frame directly adjacent to the DN1 frame or, you could as you are planning to go Hoffman buy a pack of Hoffman converters which are basically bits of plastic that slip over the side bars of S/DN frames to make them Hoffmans. There are two types - one which slide down over the top bars so you can just pop them on in situ or ones that fit on to the side bars, the latter need to be tacked into place (just one gimp pin is enough - the bees will glue them properly later) so you will need to shake the bees off them and put them on a firm surface to fix.