BBC bees tonight-Someone save me from these loonies, please!!!!!

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People who have a financial interest in selling courses, books, etc could do so without trying to demonise the average beekeeper.

But, I guess that makes it harder to sell.

The vast majority of beekeepers I know don't care about making money or even honey from their hives, they simply enjoy fiddling with bees.

I treat others who want to paint others as either hippy nymphs flitting from hive to hive spreading EFB or slave masters working bees to death just for honey with equal disinterest.
 
I missed the programme concerned, but am discovering that these days, over and over again, I only seem to need to know even a little about a subject to be dismayed/furious about the way it's been represented on the television or in the papers. So many inaccuracies or misconceptions being promoted, often so superficial, and so often, apparently the main aim seems to be to try and push people into factions for a bit of drama. Please. Let's try and resist this! It helps nobody. There's a whole spectrum of beekeepers, as far as I can see...
 
At least programme showed that beekeepers and their methods are not homogeneous.
I think the balance between beekeeping for profit and the bees welfare needs to be revisited, but it needs to done based on good evidence. I think a lot of the past research on husbandry is based on a premise established in 1940's and is either suspect or no longer valid.
 
At least programme showed that beekeepers and their methods are not homogeneous.
I think the balance between beekeeping for profit and the bees welfare needs to be revisited, but it needs to done based on good evidence. I think a lot of the past research on husbandry is based on a premise established in 1940's and is either suspect or no longer valid.

It would be useful if anyone keeping bees in a framed hive and taking treatment based interventions wasn't painted as some sort of camp commandant. Because until that happens those claiming wanting to change beekeeping practices are just going to be shouting in an echo chamber.

I do agree with you that evidence based beekeeping is the way to go, and not hope or tradition based.
 
It would be useful if anyone keeping bees in a framed hive and taking treatment based interventions wasn't painted as some sort of camp commandant. Because until that happens those claiming wanting to change beekeeping practices are just going to be shouting in an echo chamber.

I do agree with you that evidence based beekeeping is the way to go, and not hope or tradition based.



(I exclude Heidi from the following).

My experience is that some natural beekeepers are zealots for whom no evidence would be sufficient to change their minds. Facts are nasty inventions by their enemies , and scientific methods are something the Inquisition should have stamped out properly..
 
When I did the DASH course, we were specifically told not to administer antibiotics. Only bee inspectors are allowed to do this.

We were given a number of field test kits for diagnosis of afb/efb and envelopes to send infected samples in eppendorf tubes but this was just a backup. The field test kits are at least. if not more accurate, than the lab test so this is effectively a diagnosis. DASH allows you to destroy afb affected colonies (which you would do anyway) and APHA would take the sample as confirmation as though a bee inspector had done it.

If anyone else has a different view, please feel free to correct me.

I think it depends on the circumstances. In the Scottish outbreak we were trained to administer it ourselves and given a temporary certificate to do so. We had real issues with the EFB field kits during the outbreak and HAD to send in samples if we wanted official confirmation. Except in the core of the fight in 2009 when there were so many you just had to act we find that beekeepers up here are being very good about sending in their Eppendorffs and reporting. Its important for us, as if there is not reporting they might think the issue has gone away and we might lose a fair slice of the good relationship and support built up since 2009. Not quite sure the English/Welsh position, but during the outbreak here the 'by a bee inspector' would seem to have been interpreted as 'under the supervision of' and that did NOT mean hiveside supervision.

to Pargyle.....you can confirm that treatment of EFB by oxytetracyline in the formulation Terramycin is OK in the UK by checking the foulbroods section of Beebase. There are loads of other documents supporting that position even lots of results of the treatment being tested. Some of it takes a bit of finding though.
I have heard many times before from 'natural beekeepers' that it is not allowed, but that is most likely a crossover between the rules and wishful thinking. It is NOT allowed in circumstances where there is no declaration of disease and MUST be officially sanctioned (and supplied). However there are very few situations where it is necessary or advisable.

Nowadays we just diagnose in the field (by eye), take an Eppendorf and send it to SASA with appropriate notes to tie sample to specific colony, and that day...even before confirmation, remove the colony to the hospital site (known to the inspectorate and thus annotated on beebase) or for destruction by fire at home base, then after the deed is done notify the inspectorate of the fate of the colony. It works fine. Most get destroyed and indeed that is now our policy for all cases due to recurrence rates in shook swarmed colonies (over 18months that is, most are fine for months afterwards.)

From many hundreds of cases now in my own and my friends hives there is really strong correlation with bee type, so there are bees that a more resistant than others, and some just get it again and again.
 
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If you are referring to Phil Chandler, he has never been thrown off or banned from this forum, and looking back at his posts and adverts... his conduct was very good on here.

Just in support of Hivemaker about Phil Chandler. Long ago he came to interview me about the arrival of the Co-op bees near Swindon, which was being portrayed by some as the end of beekeeping as they know it.

I was given a heads up that this was not going to be anything other than a hostile interview. I am not one to shy away from such things so the interview went ahead.

Phil was polite, an enthusiastic listener with lots of questions that were RELEVANT. His subsequent podcast was fair as was his review of the podcast and the issue. Absolutely no complaints. He is one of my followers on tw;;er.
 
I think it depends on the circumstances. In the Scottish outbreak we were trained to administer it ourselves and given a temporary certificate to do so. We had real issues with the EFB field kits during the outbreak and HAD to send in samples if we wanted official confirmation. Except in the core of the fight in 2009 when there were so many you just had to act we find that beekeepers up here are being very good about sending in their Eppendorffs and reporting. Its important for us, as if there is not reporting they might think the issue has gone away and we might lose a fair slice of the good relationship and support built up since 2009. Not quite sure the English/Welsh position, but during the outbreak here the 'by a bee inspector' would seem to have been interpreted as 'under the supervision of' and that did NOT mean hiveside supervision.

Thanks for that ITLD

I think I was among the first few groups trained on the DASH scheme so I appreciate some of the advice may have changed. The idea of us acting in lieu of a bee inspector and the legal ramifications was one of the hot topics in my particular group. There was no talk of us working alongside Bee inspectors which led to questions of "were we just a free bee inspector?" to APHA. This is all quite a while ago now though (3-4 years?) and clearly hasn't turned out to be that way at all.
 
I think the balance between beekeeping for profit and the bees welfare needs to be revisited, but it needs to done based on good evidence.

Big healthy colonies bring in lots of honey, forage and weather permitting. I can see no dichotomy of one aspect being traded off against another.
Rather the opposite; in poorly managed colonies or those that receive little or no treatment are usually the poorest honey producers. Not the type of colonies that any slef respecting bee farmer would want or be interested in.
 
Big healthy colonies bring in lots of honey, forage and weather permitting. I can see no dichotomy of one aspect being traded off against another.
Rather the opposite; in poorly managed colonies or those that receive little or no treatment are usually the poorest honey producers. Not the type of colonies that any slef respecting bee farmer would want or be interested in.

Exactly the 1940s premise: "big colonies are best"
 
... beekeepers up here are being very good about sending in their Eppendorffs and reporting. ...

When I did the DASH course, ...

...and APHA would take ...

I feel embarrassed to ask, because I feel I should by now know the answers to my questions - but can you please tell me what DASH and APHA stand for?

Also, how, and with what, do you fill an Eppendorff? Mucky larvae remains?

Kitta
 
Exactly the 1940s premise: "big colonies are best"

Derek, I'm puzzled why you think large colonies, large honey crop = profits is a trade off with their welfare?
the balance between beekeeping for profit and the bees welfare needs to be revisited,
Are you suggesting big colonies are unhealthy or not looked after properly? I'd have said the opposite, that big colonies are usually healthy colonies that have been well managed and looked after.
 
Thanks for that ITLD

I think I was among the first few groups trained on the DASH scheme so I appreciate some of the advice may have changed. The idea of us acting in lieu of a bee inspector and the legal ramifications was one of the hot topics in my particular group. There was no talk of us working alongside Bee inspectors which led to questions of "were we just a free bee inspector?" to APHA. This is all quite a while ago now though (3-4 years?) and clearly hasn't turned out to be that way at all.

its very different in Scotland. I think in England its still much as you describe. Free bee inspectors...you could not be so cynical???? lol However it DOES mean less hassle too and largely left to get on with it.
 
I feel embarrassed to ask, because I feel I should by now know the answers to my questions - but can you please tell me what DASH and APHA stand for?

Also, how, and with what, do you fill an Eppendorff? Mucky larvae remains?

Kitta

Don't be....

APHA = Animal and Plant Health Agency
DASH = Disease Accreditation Scheme for Honeybees.

Precisely, the idea was that you's take a sample of a larva that you suspected was diseased, pop it in the eppendorff tube, snap shut the lid and send it to the NBU labs along with some paperwork for confirmation.
 
Derek, I'm puzzled why you think large colonies, large honey crop = profits is a trade off with their welfare?

Are you suggesting big colonies are unhealthy or not looked after properly? I'd have said the opposite, that big colonies are usually healthy colonies that have been well managed and looked after.

On the contrary I'm saying it's been taken as true without query. Large populations of anything have a greater exposure to outside things and then spreading it to all the population. This includes food and pathogens. This is just maths of interactions. So what is the balance between the positives and negatives of colony size? From the 1940s it been a given the big is best and if it's small make it big. If you read the literature it's not based on a great of deal evidence except honey yield. Recent evidence has shown that big has downsides (a paper by Seeley et al).
 
If you read the literature it's not based on a great of deal evidence except honey yield.
That works for me every time :D

Are you thinking of this Seeley paper 2016. How honey bee colonies survive in the wild: testing the importance of small nests and frequent swarming?
These were all non varroa treated colonies and perhaps not surprisingly frequent swarming (and associated brood breaks) in the smaller colonies gave lower varroa levels, compared to larger colonies that had swarm prevention implemented. Perhaps not surprisingly they had higher varroa and higher virus levels.
How that would relate to large colonies that are varroa treated is not clear, at least from this paper. He should have treated some of the larger colonies to see how effective varroa control was at lowering the prevalence of varroa and its associated disease.
 
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