Bad Advice or Not.

[fast_muchly]

Well here is a sad story and please don't flame me with go and attend your local society,we are very busy people and will try but we are learnig and we thought we had a good teacher but now we begin to wonder.

Here is the tale of woe.

We bought a plywood hive that had been weather treated no super just the bottom brood chamber with bottom mesh crown board 12 brood frames a buckfast queen and prob around 2000 bees maybe a lot less ,but they were only on 2 frames so im guessing at the numbers in AUGUST !! for £160.
We trusted the friend to look after us and they came back to see how they were doing said there doing fine never mentioned about how stong the honey supplies were in brood chamber etc etc.

As it got later into September we asked shoud we be feeding them answer we got back was if there flying nope leave them alone.
We get into October still same answer.
We get into November and we decide to feed sugar syrup but reading into it it looks as though we should have fed this earlier as they were not taking to it in a lot of numbers.
We get into December and we decide to feed fondant checking on them every week I was putting fondant around the hole in the crown board and when I checked there were a few on it but not a lot.Tried lifting brood chamber and it seemed quite light but whats light and whats heavy when your in your first year of keeping bees its hard to judge a hive if its full enough of honey when you have noting to compare it to and we didn't want to get the brood frames out at this time of year as the bees are grouped together.
End of December 2 or 3 days ago we go up and there all dead inspected frames and there is no honey in any of the frames so im guessing they have starved to death.........we could cry and feel totally responsible.

The question im asking is did we ever ever stand a chance of getting these bees through winter having the hive in late august with hardly any honey in the frames !!.As I think we have had terrible advice.

We are going to give it another go and will prob buy a nuc in spring and transfer the new bees.Whats the best month to do this and whats a good gideline price.

 

[Tom Bick]

That amount of bees in a big hive in late August had no chance of going through the winter.

 

[fast_muchly]

This is what im thinking also the hive was dry on the inside and we did insulate it as its on an allotment site which is very windy.
Im thinking its just down to we didn't have them at start of the year and esp with the weather we have had they haven't built up there stocks to get through winter.Feel we have been let down terribly there not mine but there my wifes and she is very down about it and wondering wether to pack in but trying to tell her its not her fault.

Its a national hive as well just for info they never ever got to the 3 frames on either side of the brood chamber they look like new.They just mainly were on 3 frames in middle and a few on the others the frames on the outside look like they have never been touched.

 

[Cazza]

Oh dear. That is a sorry tale.

Your advice was duff. As you have already realised they needed feeding.
You are also right to question the wisdom of buying 2 frames of bees in August.

Have another go in the Spring but why not read Hooper in between?
I have no idea re cost, someone who has bought bees recently will be along soon.

You have been brave to raise this here and deserve support. We have all done daft things with our bees. (well, I know I have.)
Cazza

 

[thurrock bees]

That amount of bees in a big hive in late August had no chance of going through the winter.

i would never sell any of my bees on less than 5 frames of bees and brood.

 

[stephenpug]

have you joined your local association and added your name to get an early swarm ??

 

[Tom Bick]

A nuc of bees with a queen should consist of 5 frames of bees and brood of all stages they can be smaller but smaller requires more careful handling and perhaps not for the novice.
If you are able to get an over wintered nuc and queen you may be able to get one from mid to late April weather dependant.
I don’t know if the £160 included the hive? If not don’t go to the person who conned you with your last bees unless its to give them a good kick up the back side as they deserve it.

 

[oliver90owner]

,we are very busy people and will try but we are learnig

Sadly, this tells the story. You have been led by the beekeeper with the plank in his eye? (biblical story?) It happens. Often, when people are too busy to actually do the job right.

Alternatively, you have been duped by your so-called 'friend' into spending some of that hard-earned cash (doubtlessly earned while you were too busy to check out the risks of any capital investment plans).

You seemingly don't need enemies while you have friends like that! On a more optimistic note, perhaps your 'friend' will turn out true to name and supply you with a split, or nuc, or whatever, to get you going in spring. Who knows? Have you enquired of him/her?

The answer to your question is yes, the bees could have been got through the winter, but clearly not a lot of chance with no knowledge and trusting to your 'friend'.

You don't say whether there was brood, or even a queen in August.

A colony that size could well have been housed in a nucleus hive (preferably polystyrene), fed appropriately, checked for disease and treated for varroa and survived the winter. Unfortunately a small under-fed colony in a cavernous box with a gaping hole in the crownboard and likely infested with varroa had everything stacked against survival until spring.

My suggestion is that you do the course or attend your local BKA meetings and then you might be ready to try again in the spring. As it stands at the moment, I have my doubts as to whether further investment would not go in the same direction as the last.

RAB

 

[borderer]

:
I don’t know if the £160 included the hive? If not don’t go to the person who conned you with your last bees unless its to give them a good kick up the back side as they deserve it.

 

[ROACHMAN]

You are right, its a sad story but dont worry, you are not the first beekeeper to fail at the first attempt, in fact a similar thing happened to me when I first started.

I had a so called mentor who sold me some bees and left me to struggle on my own. The queen became a drone layer which I didnt realise and they gradually dwindled, it was too late by the time I realised. I felt like giving up.

I bought some more bees the following spring from a reputable supplier and never looked back.

Keep reading this forum through the winter and read a couple of good books (e.g Hooper and the Haynes book).

Consider joining your local group but if you dont have time you could probably get away with just using this forum for mentorship.

Dont give up, keep going

 

[drex]

Ok so you are busy people. Not flaming you at all, just trying to help.
Do you have enough time to keep bees responsibly. They are animals in my care, just like my cats, and I owe it to them to give them the best care I can.
It is winter, so you cannot do much practical, but read as much as you can, so that you have a knowledge base to start with. You have good intuition, in estimating that they needed feeding, just lacked the knowledge.

You will get good support from your local association. They are probably just about to start an intro course to beekeeping. You are likely to get free or very cheap bees, that will be given to you in a state that makes survival more likely. You will have access to on going support.

One hive quickly becomes two, which become 4 or even 6. Do you still have the time. I hope so. It is a fascinating and absorbing hobby. The more you put into it, the more you will get out of it.

Good luck.
Enjoy.

 

[fast_muchly]

A nuc of bees with a queen should consist of 5 frames of bees and brood of all stages they can be smaller but smaller requires more careful handling and perhaps not for the novice.
If you are able to get an over wintered nuc and queen you may be able to get one from mid to late April weather dependant.
I don’t know if the £160 included the hive? If not don’t go to the person who conned you with your last bees unless its to give them a good kick up the back side as they deserve it.

The £160 included the hive bees and queen,the bees were on mainly 2 frames.we trusted them to see if there were larvae in all stages of development and they said that there was.Also slightly wrong with august the hive was put in place in late July would that make a difference on previos comments.

i wouldn't go back to previous people as they are a friend and they will say its our fault and im definite its not even tho we are novices.

Heres a pic of hive being installed in LATE JULY

 

[ratcatcher]

I would say, dont spend more money, get yourself a small nuc, or make one like I did, either join a local club or get in touch with local pest control firms, and get your name down for a swarm, keep these in the nuc until frames are nearly full, then transfer to the hive you have,

http://youtu.be/Gec9UX3CNok

 

[Tom Bick]

From late July to mid August is 3 weeks so one full brood cycle and that could be a few thousand bees so late July is better than mid August.
From the photo the bees look like they are on 4 frames but then it can be deceiving and its not known just how many of the four frames had brood you refer to the bees were mostly on two frames so at a guess I would suspect you had two frames of brood as the bees were trying to keep the brood warm.
The nuc was to small and in a cold box, too much empty space around the bees just sucking the heat away from the brood and bees. In the right sized hive and kept warm with careful handling they could have been nursed through but it would have been a gamble.
I don’t think you could have done anything and perhaps the person looking at the bees has not got great experience either.
All you can do is start again next year and do a bit of reading, I would recommend joining your local association only if you go once in a while you will be surprised what contacts you may make.

 

[oliver90owner]

If seven frames of foundation were added at that point, it is little wonder a small colony (4 frames?) did not get going well, especially this last 'so-called' summer; more so if there was a gaping hole left in the crownboard.

 

[REDWOOD]

Sorry about your bees, you don't need much time to keep bees once or twice a week for about 15 minutes but you do need time to learn the craft.
Give it another go this year but please do a few lessons first, most are done in the evening. We all make mistakes and yours seemed to be listening to a so called beekeeper.
Stay with us and anything you don't understand please ask questions.
good luck with 2013

 

[rolande]

Fair play, it does sound like you've suffered from the results of some bad (although probably not wilful) guidance. That said, your initial post also seems to suggest that you pretty much abdicated responsibilty. They checked that there was brood and eggs, they told you not to feed if the bees were flying, you asked again (so must have had doubts) a month later and they told you, again, not to feed etc.

If you're going to continue with beekeeping it may be best to take a more positive hands on approach when you get some new bees which is likely to mean a lot of ongoing reading and video viewing as you've already pointed out that you don't wish to be guided to join your local association.

I'm pretty sure that you're going to be really good beekeepers, you certainly seem to have plenty of confidence...

i wouldn't go back to previous people as they are a friend and they will say its our fault and im definite its not even tho we are novices.

 

[Beanwood]

Sorry, it's harsh, but get lessons, and check you REALLY have time for the bees, EVERY week in the summer season. 10 Lessons at my local BKA (Monday evenings) were £110, including hands on experience, and enrollment in the 'free bee' scheme - you get to look after a hive and bees for 12 months - like it, then buy the whole lot for £150, not for you - just return them!! £110 is very little cash in the overall cost of things - and IMHO it's a complete no-brainer.

From personal experience, with feeding, insulation to pack in the brood, and IPM treatments, they could likely have survived the winter, assuming there was a queen in residence.

Where are you keeping them - at home? What if they turn a bit prickly - do you have a fallback plan? (Mine got that way when hungry and/or queenless)

Look on this forum for advice, but know enough that you can choose what you think is right.

It's a terrific feeling when it all goes right!

It doesn't always go right

 

[irishguy]

Im a novice myself and have a question for this thread. What if he had stored the hive in his house or a garage with some heat, would he still have lost the bees?

 

[Luminos]

to the forum fast_muchly, sorry you lost your bees
I lost my first colony, different reason, but the same result.

Lots of great advice on the forum, stick with it. Chin up.