Bad Advice or Not.

[Outlander]

I am also sorry to hear about your bees. I don’t think you are all to blame at all but I would question your friend’s ability. I do feel that through this experience; though bad as it is you will gain valuable advice. My friend Village Girls has managed to bring on two very small cast swarm which are doing very well so I have no doubt yours could have survived. As others have already advised you join your local association and get your self on a course. Read lots and ask questions on here. Good luck and I do hope you try again. So hurry not long before it all starts again.

 

[fast_muchly]

If seven frames of foundation were added at that point, it is little wonder a small colony (4 frames?) did not get going well, especially this last 'so-called' summer; more so if there was a gaping hole left in the crownboard.

I know it looks as though they were on 4 frames but they were not they were all on 2 frames and prob about 10 on the other 2 at the side of the main 2.

I have had the frames out there is NO honey in the frames at all I don't think the bees died of cold as we did insulate the hive with polystyrene sheeting above the crown board and around the side of the hives taking care there were ventilation holes in it.The hive was dry and it does have an open mesh floor.

To over winter them we tried feeding fondant and a few bees took to it,but again have we fed this wrong as the crown board was straight on top of the frames with YES a hole in it,i put the fondant around that so basically the bees had to climb thru the crown board leave there huddle to get at it.Shud I have rested the fondant on paper straight on top of the frames and then put the crown board on top of that.

If the bees have died of cold trying to get to the fondant then why is there no honey stocks in the frames at all.My feeling is they have starved due to lack of numbers,they haven't been able to build up honey stocks for winter due to being put in place late july and also the terrible summer we have had.

Im not getting why you say esp if there was a large hole left in the crown board which there was.Im guessing you mean the heat escaping,but above this we had a poly sheet and then the roof.

If we were to get another set of bees and a queen at the start of spring are you saying they would easily fill the whole of the bottom brood box and have enough to get through winter.Im realising we are very unlikely to get a crop of honey this year from a super as they will need to sort the brood chamber out first.Or seeing as we have them at the start of spring should we pop a super on with frames and the queen excluder in place and see what happens ?.

And yes WE do have time to check the bees !!,don't get really why you are asking this as we have an allotment and grow veg, its getting to the bee association meetings that's the difficult thing.

If I get this right,its sounding like yes the bees could have got thru winter in the hands of a very experienced person and a very small nuc and not in a massive hive that they were to small in numbers for.They should have been transferred to a hive this spring.

Whats even more annoying as in july we said because of costs really we didn't want the bees till next spring ( 2013 ) but we will have the hive ( part of a birthday pressie for wife ) ,but they sort of shoved them at us and made us feel guilty as he didn't have space for them.

again I will ask shud we at the start of spring put a super on with frames add a queen excluder add a new nuc to the brood box and see what happens.Or buy a nuc put that where the hive is move the hive away till the nuc is full and then transfer to the hive and put it back in the same place the nuc was.

sorry if some of this doesn't make sense and im not the best typist I miss a few keys at time.

Thx for all the help though and if anyones in notts area and might have a swarm or a nuc in spring then we are ready for it

 

[beeno]

Hi to you both,
Being a newbie myself I would suggest that you get on your local associations swarm list, unless you have the money to buy a good nuc from a reputable supplier. However, start learning how to look after a swarm now. Then when you get it you can do it step by step by reading this forum and ask at a need to know basis. It is very difficult to take in all the information at once, I find, so I prefer to 'learn on the job' so to speak, but there are certain things you should no before you get the swarm i.e. the right size hive for the size of the swarm. The general concensus, dare I say that, for example when it comes to nucs is that they should not have a mesh floor - they need all the warmth they can get! Keep going you will get there! As our 87 year old charge says, it is more to beekeeping than I thought.

 

[kevrhcfag]

First off welcome.

We started last Spring so here is what we have learnt done.

Don't think you had a hope in hell, nucs last year were delivered late and light due to the weather so your not alone. Bees should of been at one end not in the middle.

As for next spring it will depend on the weather, if it follows this year then again early strong nucs will not be available. This year we bought strong "over wintered" nucs and got honey without a problem, I would suggest the same, but there is a cost to them. People on here sell them but I would make sure its strong and with a 2012 queen. The hive will need a super QE when it needs it, if its a decent Queen and strong it will need more than one, if you are going to buy them buy 3. Once a hive hits a decent mass with decent weather it expands very rapidly.

Go and get a decent book, and / or get yourself on a theory course. The reality is there are far too many variables to what you could do and what you need depending on your decision.

Its a wonderful hobby btw.

 

[rolande]

I know it looks as though they were on 4 frames but they were not they were all on 2 frames and prob about 10 on the other 2 at the side of the main 2.......

.....but they sort of shoved them at us and made us feel guilty as he didn't have space for them.

This, combined with the photo suggests that your nuc was probably started as a 4 comb walk-away split with a swarm cell. Nothing necessarily wrong with that, but, if made up in flying range of the parent colony without a surplus of young bees you have the making of an underpopulated nuc. Then, you have the brood break while waiting for the new queen to mate. You never stated the proportion of sealed brood to eggs/young larvae nor whether your queen was producing a good brood pattern. Of course, even if she appeared to have mated well to begin with that's no to say that she didn't fail later in the summer or autumn.

So many variables, who can say if they'd have survived if you'd fed them when they first needed to be fed? Likewise, who can tell you what a nuc is going to manage to do next year? I could say that you could get a super off of an early nuc but if you don't I'll just be tarred as someone else who gave you bad advice. Outlander said that he doesn't think that you're responsible -I don't disagree with him but neither do I think there's any milage to be gained from laying the blame at the feet of bad advice; you plainly thought about feeding but you didn't. It's not the end of the world, ask any farmer and s/he'll tell you that where there's livestock there's dead stock.

 

[Chris B]

Regarding price paid. This old Rhyme still holds true to some degree:

A swarm in May is worth a load of hay
A swarm in June is worth a silver spoon
A swarm in July isn't worth a fly.

Or to bring it a bit more up to date - there is a big seasonal element to the value of bees. Early bees are worth more because you have all the honey making potential and few of the survival worries.

 

[Oscarmonster]

Im a novice myself and have a question for this thread. What if he had stored the hive in his house or a garage with some heat, would he still have lost the bees?

Bees need access to the outdoors all year round, you can't hibernate them in your garage like a tortoise.
People do keep bees in a special bee shed, whether it would of helped in this case though, I doubt.

 

[domino]

I started last year with my local association and I have to say it is absolutely the best way to start to learn bee-keeping.

I've had nothing but a positive experience, I collected my swarm with an association member (so free bess), they helped me with a little advice here and there and provided just enough advice when I needed it and didn't nanny me.

I also got a space to put my bees on the association apiary which meant there was normally someone on hand to give me some support if I needed it during an inspection. It also helped allay my fear that I'd end up inflicted swarming bees on the public because I didn't know what I was doing.

I don't think anyone could give you any better guidance when asking how to start bee-keeping than point you straight at the local association. You'll have a group of people who only want to support you and see you do well.

 

[Skyhook]

And yes WE do have time to check the bees !!,don't get really why you are asking this as we have an allotment and grow veg, its getting to the bee association meetings that's the difficult thing.

If I get this right,its sounding like yes the bees could have got thru winter in the hands of a very experienced person and a very small nuc and not in a massive hive that they were to small in numbers for.They should have been transferred to a hive this spring.

Whats even more annoying as in july we said because of costs really we didn't want the bees till next spring ( 2013 ) but we will have the hive ( part of a birthday pressie for wife ) ,but they sort of shoved them at us and made us feel guilty as he didn't have space for them.

again I will ask shud we at the start of spring put a super on with frames add a queen excluder add a new nuc to the brood box and see what happens.Or buy a nuc put that where the hive is move the hive away till the nuc is full and then transfer to the hive and put it back in the same place the nuc was.

sorry if some of this doesn't make sense and im not the best typist I miss a few keys at time.

Thx for all the help though and if anyones in notts area and might have a swarm or a nuc in spring then we are ready for it

I think I and other people were unsure from your OP how busy 'too busy' meant, if you're allotmenters then you should have a fair idea of how long things take. And to add my voice to the chorus above, I think you've suffered at the hands of your 'friend', the bees had a bad start but might have made it through with the correct care.

Bees need to pretty much fill the space they are in. You could get a nuc box: an alternative is to reduce them down to the frames they are using and maybe one more, then fill the space with insulation, eg kingspan. I have a couple of smallish colonies that are overwintering on 7 or 8 frames with 50mm of Kingspan each side, but you can half-fill the box if required. I have some 50mm and some 25mm sheets cut to size with GAFA tape round the edges, and permutate as needed. The advantages of this are that a) you don't need to buy a nuc box and b) you can increase the available space incrementally.

If you buy a nucleus colony, it is unlikely to come with a decent nuc box- they tend to either comein a returnable box (eg the supplier will deliver the bees then take the box away with him), or in a thin disposable one, eg correx, which would not retain enough warmth for them to live in.

Whether you buy a nuc or get a swarm (unless it's a big one!) I would start them on a few frames, dummied down as above. Depending on the season, feeding may be appropriate- read books in advance, and the forum as you go along. Don't super until they are filling the brood box with brood on maybe 8 frames.

 

[Chris B]

Bees need access to the outdoors all year round, you can't hibernate them in your garage like a tortoise.
People do keep bees in a special bee shed, whether it would of helped in this case though, I doubt.

I know some large Canadian beekeepers have pioneered keeping bees in dark airconditioned warehouses overwinter. They keep them clustered by maintaining a temperature about 5 degrees. So no cleansing flights midwinter (bad) but optimum use of stores. And they don't succumb to severe Canadian winters. It makes no sense for the UK though. It was virtually t-shirt weather today and bees flying strongly.

 

[itma]

...
And yes WE do have time to check the bees !!,don't get really why you are asking this as we have an allotment and grow veg, its getting to the bee association meetings that's the difficult thing.

...

Have a word with the local association secretary.
Transport difficulties are not a unique problem.
The secretary may well be able to help sort out a lift for you - a few veg and a share of the petrol should help things along!


However "meetings" and "courses" aren't quite the same.
Meetings provide new ideas (some good, some not) but usually of the tips and tricks type. I have found seeing (inside) as many other folks hives as possible to be the best way of gaining experience - I'd recommend that to anyone that has the interest in learning.
Courses provide the framework within which others' ideas and snippets of advice can be understood and put in context.

If you are not able to do a course, then the advice has to be to read as widely as you can. The forum frequently discusses beginner's books.
Again the thing is to avoid single-sourcing the advice.
Ask two beekeepers, get three (or more) answers!
However, by reading (and comparing) a few books you'll begin to recognise the orthodox and the unorthodox - and tell them apart!
Local libraries can get books in for you to go through. Many are really not worth buying because you won't be wanting to refer back to them. But they are still worth seeing!


Right now, you don't need to be learning about overwintering. That's gone for this year as far as you are concerned.
Equipment sanitising, colony build-up, varroa and diseases, even swarm prevention and hopefully harvesting are things that you will need to know about before having to do winter preparation again.
So - look forward to the coming year!


Without meaning to scare you, I must warn you that a single hive isn't very sustainable. Running two colonies - and thus having a full set of spare-part bees - makes it MUCH harder to lose the lot during the season.
Absent a second hive of your own, some really good pals at the association are your second choice for practical assistance. When you need something physical (for example, a few sheets of foundation, spare hive bits for an artificial swarm, or even a 'test frame' with eggs) -- "virtual" internet support may not be enough. The association should also help you to put off the purchase of a honey extractor - for a couple of years at least!
You need to be a member. See what can be arranged.

And yes, over time, you'll be needing a whole lot more kit of your own, as you move towards being self-sufficient.

/ what else have you got, apart from what's in the photo? Is there a dummy board for that brood box? How many supers and (spare) shallow frames have you got? What sort of feeder(s)? ...

 

[MuswellMetro]

again I will ask shud we at the start of spring put a super on with frames add a queen excluder add a new nuc to the brood box and see what happens.Or buy a nuc put that where the hive is move the hive away till the nuc is full and then transfer to the hive and put it back in the same place the nuc was.

/QUOTE]


lets start from the beginning, my veiws

buy or get given a swarm....swarm striaght off the tree is the easiest, run it from the ground into an empty hive and feed 1:1 syrup..., if it is a strong swarm it will fil the box with wax comb in a remarkarkable short time, if it is small then it will fill half the box first....so after 14 days dummy it down to one extra foundation either side of their wax and regulary check if they need extra foundation...Bees don't like large open nests except swarm bees

Nuc, first let it biuld up to a strong nuc on five frames, then transfer it to a hive on the same spot with a foundation frame either side of their wax, then a dummy board with empty foundation frames on the non nest side .as they biuld more wax move the dummy board until it is the last frame in the hive...then you can add a Queen excluder and a super but only then and if still summer flow on

Ventilation...more debate and brick bates thrown on here over ventilation and whether different methods are required now on open mesh floors introduce in the 1990's ,

Two schools...keep them cold and extremetlry well ventilated ( after Wedmoren1947) or keep the warm and rely on the open mesh floor (after B Mobus 1990)

So has your hive an open mesh floor?....as what my advice would be differs for OMF or Solid floors

if it is an early swarm or Nuc then you should get a super of honey..IN A GOOD summer

 

[Chris B]

Yes a swarm is a good starting point, especially as it's free.
Even better, put your hive out early April as a bait hive - the swarm may well come to you without you needing to fetch it. (Use the Search facility - advice elsewhere on this forum on bait hives).
The only thing is a swarm queen is best replaced in the autumn IMHO - reduces the chances of having to do swarm control the following season.

 

[mbc]

Yes a swarm is a good starting point, especially as it's free.
Even better, put your hive out early April as a bait hive - the swarm may well come to you without you needing to fetch it. (Use the Search facility - advice elsewhere on this forum on bait hives).
The only thing is a swarm queen is best replaced in the autumn IMHO - reduces the chances of having to do swarm control the following season.

Counter intuitively I only try and replace the queens in cast swarms I've collected. Prime swarms often requeen themselves by supercedure and I feel statistically they have a good chance of having genes worth persevering with in comparison to cast swarms, who although they have young queens, are more often from rubbish stock and will more likely than not cause swarming problems in the apiary the following season.

 

[kevrhcfag]

You can do a search online for PDF books that are free, try beekeeping beginners books.

There is a decent one on one of the University websites available for download about 7th if you put it in google "A Practical manual of Beekeeping".

A theory course can be a day or a couple of hours a week spread over 2 months or so. The meetings might be fine, can't tell you myself as we haven't had a chance to attend one yet due to other things, we were determined to get to at least one before the end of the season, we turned up but the date had been changed, we weren't the only ones that turned up either.

If you can find someone to take good advice from, just getting on with it isn't a big deal with just the one hive, I would suggest someone other than your "friend", perhaps the local cat might be a better option.

 

[irishguy]

Bees need access to the outdoors all year round, you can't hibernate them in your garage like a tortoise.
People do keep bees in a special bee shed, whether it would of helped in this case though, I doubt.

I understand this but theres been cases where bees have hived in peoples houses, attic's etc and i was wondering would it be better to do so for the bees benefit.

 

[itma]

I understand this but theres been cases where bees have hived in peoples houses, attic's etc and i was wondering would it be better to do so for the bees benefit.

Bees do nest in building cavities.
However beekeepers don't deliberately take them in for the winter (except maybe in semi-polar regions - colder than Finland!)

The bees get the easiest ride through winter (lowest need to convert stores to warmth) at about 6 to 8C (according to a published graph of Seeley's).