Asian Hornets

[fian]

What utter rubbish.

I have spent the past two decades re-educating the pest control industry in the UK away from using pesticides as a means to control vespines focusing instead on integrated wasp management. The courses I run in the UK attract 12 cpd points from the National Pest Technician Association and 10 cpd points from the British Pest Control Association. Given that the whole ethos of integrated wasp management is to manage and not eradicate wasps in environmentally sensitive ways to restrict the use of pesticides, that should reassure you that when I share my knowledge it's not to become the bedfellow of Bayer and it's certainly not to harm ecology.

And the custard with fipronil is perhaps not a use of pesticides against vespines because you don't know where the poison is going to end up.
Regarding its effectiveness in Portugal there is still velutina and increasingly to the south, I can ask why they rejected their (the Portuguese, if they exist) research as a "final solution".

 

[mazzamazda]

I don’t currently live in PT so can’t give you updated info but when I left in august 2021 I had almost zero VV, VC were more abundant, a few visitors when wind changed direction.

I had hornets wipe out only 4 colonies in the 7 years I dealt with them, heavy attacks in 2014, all end colonies so that makes me wonder if that was varroa and not necessarily hornets, they probably just finished the job. The only way they overcome colonies is to defeat the defences on weak hives, big open entrances, a few frames of bees and many hornets, say 20 per hive, only then will they enter. Although I did have a customer lose 288 full colonies, I have lost the videos but they were insane, hundreds of hornets inside hives, millions outside. That would have been an enjoyable eradication for me!

In PT there isn’t a good enough reason to eradicate, there is a good trade in electric arpas, traps etc etc. I believe there is even a custard in a syringe now being sold,

I will agree with everything Karol says regarding trapping, absolutely exhausting and futile.

With the custard there are minimal amounts of chemicals being put out there and definitely selective. I imagine the only problem the U.K. will have will be the same issue as I had when I left that was having enough hornets around to catch and treat. It is a difficult mixture to get right, and there are variables I can’t explain but I would never resort to trapping or worrying about hornets again.

 

[Ian123]

I don’t currently live in PT so can’t give you updated info but when I left in august 2021 I had almost zero VV, VC were more abundant, a few visitors when wind changed direction.

I had hornets wipe out only 4 colonies in the 7 years I dealt with them, heavy attacks in 2014, all end colonies so that makes me wonder if that was varroa and not necessarily hornets, they probably just finished the job. The only way they overcome colonies is to defeat the defences on weak hives, big open entrances, a few frames of bees and many hornets, say 20 per hive, only then will they enter. Although I did have a customer lose 288 full colonies, I have lost the videos but they were insane, hundreds of hornets inside hives, millions outside. That would have been an enjoyable eradication for me!

In PT there isn’t a good enough reason to eradicate, there is a good trade in electric arpas, traps etc etc. I believe there is even a custard in a syringe now being sold,

I will agree with everything Karol says regarding trapping, absolutely exhausting and futile.

With the custard there are minimal amounts of chemicals being put out there and definitely selective. I imagine the only problem the U.K. will have will be the same issue as I had when I left that was having enough hornets around to catch and treat. It is a difficult mixture to get right, and there are variables I can’t explain but I would never resort to trapping or worrying about hornets again.

Excellent……Thks for putting things so clearly for us and perhaps putting into perspective the situation and claims coming from darkest Kent!!

 

[Skinfaxi]

As a horticulturalist that hates chemicals.i dont really see the problem with fibrinol to kill hornets. It is used on our pets ( alot worse ) so how can it be so bad used in controlled small amounts. considering the enviromental impact the Asian hornets will have on ecology and agriculture and general life. At the moment it seems the best and most effective tool.
With the increased costs and time use many bee keepers will cry to pay for all the extra goodies now needed to farm or keep bees ontop of all the other price increases and decrease in honey prices.

 

[Erichalfbee]

I don’t currently live in PT so can’t give you updated info but when I left in august 2021 I had almost zero VV, VC were more abundant, a few visitors when wind changed direction. I had hornets wipe out only 4 colonies in the 7 years I dealt with them, heavy attacks in 2014, all end colonies so that makes me wonder if that was varroa and not necessarily hornets, they probably just finished the job. The only way they overcome colonies is to defeat the defences on weak hives, big open entrances, a few frames of bees and many hornets, say 20 per hive, only then will they enter. Although I did have a customer lose 288 full colonies, I have lost the videos but they were insane, hundreds of hornets inside hives, millions outside. That would have been an enjoyable eradication for me! In PT there isn’t a good enough reason to eradicate, there is a good trade in electric arpas, traps etc etc. I believe there is even a custard in a syringe now being sold, I will agree with everything Karol says regarding trapping, absolutely exhausting and futile. With the custard there are minimal amounts of chemicals being put out there and definitely selective. I imagine the only problem the U.K. will have will be the same issue as I had when I left that was having enough hornets around to catch and treat. It is a difficult mixture to get right, and there are variables I can’t explain but I would never resort to trapping or worrying about hornets again.

Thanks Mark for popping in to give us your update.
At least you don’t have AH to worry about in Sweden

 

[fian]

https://www.theportugalnews.com/es/...contra-la-invasion-de-avispas-asiaticas/58457Curiously, traps in spring until May also work.
Now it's time to bet on a model and apply it on a large scale.

 

[mazzamazda]

https://www.theportugalnews.com/es/...contra-la-invasion-de-avispas-asiaticas/58457Curiously, traps in spring until May also work.
Now it's time to bet on a model and apply it on a large scale.

I have to disagree, my time is too precious and visiting beekeepers in Portugal who intensively trap they have the same pressure when July comes around, than if they didn’t, I saw no difference trapping or not in the spring in my desperate early days and same attacks. The other beekeepers also don’t have the time so indiscriminately trap, catch wasps, native hornets, all types of moth, and many other insects. Imo they are as bad as the hornets themselves.

I believe that with the extra forage and fewer nests it can be more dangerous as you end up with super nests, over a metre in diameter, they are huge, the foragers can inflict severe damage like the beekeeper who lost 288 hives. I don’t think you would ever see these in the U.K.

 

[mazzamazda]

Excellent……Thks for putting things so clearly for us and perhaps putting into perspective the situation and claims coming from darkest Kent!!

You are welcome!

 

[mazzamazda]

Thanks Mark for popping in to give us your update.
At least you don’t have AH to worry about in Sweden

Hahaha, or varroa, almost! Nice to be back, thanks

 

[mazzamazda]

And the custard with fipronil is perhaps not a use of pesticides against vespines because you don't know where the poison is going to end up.
Regarding its effectiveness in Portugal there is still velutina and increasingly to the south, I can ask why they rejected their (the Portuguese, if they exist) research as a "final solution".

There is zero interest from authorities to control VV. where I kept my bees in the north, an area of around 20 square kms, the fire brigade had a backlog of 300 reported nests, these are people who have reported nests on property where people are living, in august 2021 they reported they wouldn’t be dealing with any more. There is also a corporate interest i believe.

 

[ericbeaumont]

zero interest from authorities to control VV

What was their response to your control method?

 

[mazzamazda]

What was their response to your control method?

Very little interest except from beekeepers

 

[Erichalfbee]

It’s going to be the same here. We are going to be left to fend for ourselves in the end so threads like this are going to be a pretty good go to in the future.
It’s going into the stickies. Here
https://beekeepingforum.co.uk/threads/index-of-stickies.50958/

 

[Skinfaxi]

I have a question, would the limited genetics in the european group of AHornets not get weak over time.

 

[North End Bees]

I have a question, would the limited genetics in the european group of AHornets not get weak over time.

How long will that take though?
All the AH in Europe are descended from one queen almost 20 years ago.
Mutations will eventually help to diversify the pool as with all living things.

 

[ericbeaumont]

How long will that take though?

In the meantime, loss of pollinators will lead to a reduction in food production and a consequent increase in prices and imports. Given the current threat to food supply lines by climate change, dependence on cheap food and rising costs of global production, other methods will be explored because the concern is not only the loss of pollinators, but loss of crop & food security. This was estimated in 2011 to be 13% of food production if all pollinators disappeared. (2.7, NNSS report).

A small ray of light in the report at 1.21: other hornet species are known to be susceptible to endoparasitism by the nematode Sphaerularia vespae, resulting in their sterilisation (Kanzaki et al., 2007; Sayama et al., 2007). Sphaerularia sp. affects UK bumblebees.

Although Karol clarified the failure of Vespa gene modification, the University of Edinburgh is more optimistic: upshot is that though the method would have to focus on the female line and is not an easy fix, nevertheless, continued improvements in gene drive technology may make it a promising method for the control of invasive social insects in the future. At least the V.v genome has been mapped.

would the limited genetics in the european group of AHornets not get weak over time.

The University of FR de T had this to say in 2017: as males do not build the nest, their presence in the first wave could slow the expansion of the species. The researchers believe the mis-timed presence of the males could be down to a genetic flaw brought about by inbreeding.

The use of the words could and believe leads me to wait for Karol's thoughts before getting excited about any of these snippets.

 

[Karol]

It’s going to be the same here. We are going to be left to fend for ourselves in the end so threads like this are going to be a pretty good go to in the future.
It’s going into the stickies. Here
https://beekeepingforum.co.uk/threads/index-of-stickies.50958/

Just as a follow up, I think it would be prudent for BKAs to coalesce around a unified escalating strategy prepared in readiness perhaps on a traffic light system? Green for monitoring. Amber for reporting to NBU for controlled destruction. Red for active participation by beekeepers in eradication coordinated through BKAs if and only if and when NBU resources are overwhelmed.

This would allow structured training on an agreed approach and eradication techniques but also address matters of law. There have been a number of occasions for example stating that the use of custard in the UK is illegal. I hesitate to raise this but I don't know what statutes would actually be broken were custard to be used in the UK? It wouldn't be used in hives or on bees so I don't think it would actually fall under the jurisdiction of the VMD because it's not being used on an animal (as defined under the VMD). It's also not a plant protection product so wouldn't come under HSE PPP control as far as I can see. The biocides directive controls the sale of insecticides but not their use and the insecticide is available as a general sales list veterinary medicine so doesn't have to be sold or prescribed by a vet. I'm not aware of what other regulations it would fall under which could actually prohibit its use.

Perhaps someone more knowledgable in the art can provide clarity of the law as it applies in the UK and I think this would be wise to do in advance so that beekeepers know where they stand in the event the UK goes red and beekeepers have to 'fend for themselves'.

Usual disclaimer applies. I'm not advocating use in the UK because conditions do not exist to warrant or justify use and furthermore until the legal position is clarified it should be assumed that off label use is unlawful.

 

[Wilco]

Just as a follow up, I think it would be prudent for BKAs to coalesce around a unified escalating strategy prepared in readiness perhaps on a traffic light system? Green for monitoring. Amber for reporting to NBU for controlled destruction. Red for active participation by beekeepers in eradication coordinated through BKAs if and only if and when NBU resources are overwhelmed.

This would allow structured training on an agreed approach and eradication techniques but also address matters of law. There have been a number of occasions for example stating that the use of custard in the UK is illegal. I hesitate to raise this but I don't know what statutes would actually be broken were custard to be used in the UK? It wouldn't be used in hives or on bees so I don't think it would actually fall under the jurisdiction of the VMD because it's not being used on an animal (as defined under the VMD). It's also not a plant protection product so wouldn't come under HSE PPP control as far as I can see. The biocides directive controls the sale of insecticides but not their use and the insecticide is available as a general sales list veterinary medicine so doesn't have to be sold or prescribed by a vet. I'm not aware of what other regulations it would fall under which could actually prohibit its use.

Perhaps someone more knowledgable in the art can provide clarity of the law as it applies in the UK and I think this would be wise to do in advance so that beekeepers know where they stand in the event the UK goes red and beekeepers have to 'fend for themselves'.

Usual disclaimer applies. I'm not advocating use in the UK because conditions do not exist to warrant or justify use and furthermore until the legal position is clarified it should be assumed that off label use is unlawful.

Don't think its the fipronil that's the issue it's the catch and release of an invasive species. You gave an example earlier which is potentially technically within the law but not in the spirit of it (stunned not being caught therefore it's not releasing one if you let it fly off) and I wouldn't advise testing that in court.

 

[Karol]

In the meantime, loss of pollinators will lead to a reduction in food production and a consequent increase in prices and imports. Given the current threat to food supply lines by climate change, dependence on cheap food and rising costs of global production, other methods will be explored because the concern is not only the loss of pollinators, but loss of crop & food security. This was estimated in 2011 to be 13% of food production if all pollinators disappeared. (2.7, NNSS report).

A small ray of light in the report at 1.21: other hornet species are known to be susceptible to endoparasitism by the nematode Sphaerularia vespae, resulting in their sterilisation (Kanzaki et al., 2007; Sayama et al., 2007). Sphaerularia sp. affects UK bumblebees.

Although Karol clarified the failure of Vespa gene modification, the University of Edinburgh is more optimistic: upshot is that though the method would have to focus on the female line and is not an easy fix, nevertheless, continued improvements in gene drive technology may make it a promising method for the control of invasive social insects in the future. At least the V.v genome has been mapped.


The University of FR de T had this to say in 2017: as males do not build the nest, their presence in the first wave could slow the expansion of the species. The researchers believe the mis-timed presence of the males could be down to a genetic flaw brought about by inbreeding.

The use of the words could and believe leads me to wait for Karol's thoughts before getting excited about any of these snippets.

One thing I learned a long time ago about the principles of integrated wasp management is that if there is a need for participation by actors other than passionate adopters then the solution has to be simple with as little cost (and by that I mean any currency of effort or resource) as possible. The difficulty I foresee with gene drive technology as far as vespines go is that inseminated queens have the ability to select which semen they use based on the performance of their off spring. The selection of sexuals is a complex and little understood process which combines semen selection as well as feeding royal jelly. These are significant impediments to gene drive technology which layer on top of the massive practical problems of generating enough consistent volume of gene drive vectors to overcome natural inertia.

Compare the costs of something which is incredibly effective at a few quid against the cost of gene drive technology in the millions and I'm sorry to dampen your ardour for sexy science but I can't see it being viable.

With regards to excess drone production I'm not sure if it can be attributed to genetic flaws as a consequence of in breeding. It could also be explained by a lack of food. Workers are able to lay eggs but because they have not been fertilized they develop as drones. One of the constant actions of the incumbent queen is to destroy worker laid eggs. If the queen is forced to forage for prey longer because of a lack of prey, she may not get round to destroying worker laid eggs resulting in early drone production. Early drone production is a further drain on resources which is good news and isn't a threat because queens will not have been produced for the drones to mate with.

 

[Karol]

Don't think its the fipronil that's the issue it's the catch and release of an invasive species. You gave an example earlier which is potentially technically within the law but not in the spirit of it (stunned not being caught therefore it's not releasing one if you let it fly off) and I wouldn't advise testing that in court.

Absolutely concur. The conditions don't presently exist in the UK for using fipronil custard which is why I am not advocating it's use at present and that includes the legal restriction on release. The point of raising this in conversation is to explore the issues in advance so that beekeepers can be better prepared to deal with velutina should conditions change.

That said, I believe there is enough wriggle room within the WCA 1981 to avoid prosecution. The definition of release requires release from a contained holding (at no point is there a contained holding) and release is into the environment but the animal has not been removed from the environment. There is also a defence of humane killing which allows transport to a place where the animal is killed. In this instance the animal is treated with a poison specifically to kill it at its place of death, i.e. its nest.

The disclaimer here is that this is only an opinion which is being explored as a matter of conversation and that individuals should not act on such opinion without taking proper legal advice. Far better to canvass local MPs to secure specific provisions within the WCA 1981 for dealing with velutina.