Are all scrub Queens poor?

[Howsoonisnow]

When the queens are developing in the 'finisher', wont the original queen below swarm on their queen cell being sealed or am I missing something?

Thanks

 

[Crg]

Which can be any combination of 50% of her genes, not just the good.

Can be any combination of her genes and the drones. Presumably you'd be picking her because she got some qualities you want, maybe less swarmy, maybe docile, maybe has disease resistance.

All these arguments you seem to be trying to use are equally applicable to any queen your bees raise without any input from you, except the queens could be from your worst colony and you're guaranteed they've got genes you don't want.

And creates a limited gene pool, the USA is down to only 39 distinct gene pools now, all from queen and package producers breeding 1000s of queens a year off of the best colony.

On one hand you seem to be say any selection won't make any difference... and the other you seem to be implying you're going to limit the entire gene pool of the USA.

If you're an amateur with a couple of hives, and naturally mating, I can assure you, you're not going to be limiting the entire gene pool.

We are also nearly unable to bring any new stock in. Canada has the same stock as does NZ, the only countries we can bring queens from.

NZ doesn't have the same the USA, unless by 'stock' you mean 'Apis mellifera'.
The USA might have quite a few of the same genes as NZ mixed up with what they already had.

Also you've got new stock coming in from the south.

I am not arguing that we should not breed queens. I breed queens of my own.

It certainly doesn't sound like you breed queens of your own.

What I am arguing is that there is a false impression among beeks that we can do it better. They go through hives and destroy every queen cell that they themselves did not induce the bees to make. There by wasting the labors of their bees only to force them to make a new queen of what is probably only equal value.

I'm arguing against your "well it might not turn out better so I should just give up now and pray to the bee gods that it works out the way I want it".

If they are selecting from their best queens, it is more likely that the resulting queens will turn out with the same qualities than if they don't. It's quite simple really.

An armature beek without the tight controls we previously discussed is not going to create the holly Grail of queens. They can produce some good productive queens, which I can assure you , you really don't have to be very selective to do.

Holy grail of queens? Who said a amateur beekeeper is aiming for that?
Like I said earlier, what you are saying is just because I can't earn a million pounds a year I should just not try to earn anything at all, and that's just silly.

Domesticated bees have been breed for production and gentleness for 1000s of years. You are not going to breed that out of them in a life time.

Firstly in one cross you can get hyper defensive bees. It might put you off bees for a lifetime. Secondly I think you might want to go back and read how bees were kept a few hundred years ago and think about what traits that would've selected for before you make claims about what people have bred for for 1000's of years.

My best hives have been from feral sources, colonies headed up by queens that nature selected. I have sold of splits of these colonies and frequently have people come back flabbergasted that they out build up and produce commercially breed packages. The answer I have given them is that they are doing what nature selected them to do.

You're in the USA aren't you? Nature didn't put Apis mellifera there, nature doesn't do AS, nature didn't introduce new diseases, the list goes on, but possibly the best thing for you to do is read up on hybrid vigour. If your colonies out produce the commercial ones that might give you some reasons why.

 

[mbc]

When the queens are developing in the 'finisher', wont the original queen below swarm on their queen cell being sealed or am I missing something?

Thanks

No. Swarming is something the bees prepare for, build up to and subsequently execute according to the physiological development of the colony. e.g. they slim down the queen and fatten up the workers before swarming. If their not ready to go then they wont, however if they are ready to go then I'm sure they would go giving the impression that the cell raising has caused the swarming

 

[Knoxen]

Domesticated bees have been breed for production and gentleness for 1000s of years.

Bees have been domesticated for a couple of hundred years only. Before that, for thousands of years they were hunted, not farmed, and naturally selected for
* swarminess (that's the only way they could reproduce)
* resistance to local diseases (otherwise they'd die - but these are not the diseases we're faced with now)
* defensiveness (to maintain control of their nests)

Temper (defensiveness) can change either way in a generation - I've learned this the hard way!

 

[Howsoonisnow]

Bees aren't domesticated: they are wild. Beekeepers just house them and, if they poor at swarm control, only temporarily.

 

[sugarbush]

Bees aren't domesticated: they are wild. Beekeepers just house them and, if they poor at swarm control, only temporarily.

I recommend you look up the term "feral" in the dictionary. feral is a pretty common term world wide when describing honey bees that are no longer in the beekeepers control. As a prerequisite they must be domestic before they can go feral.

On the rest of this we will just have to agree to disagree.

 

[Howsoonisnow]

That sounds like a chicken and egg situation.

I suggested you look up 'domesticated'.

So if a bait box becomes populated by a wild swarm, the bees are instantly domesticated?

Wild bee populations are frequently incorrectly called feral. I supposed as AMM was introduced from Europe 3 or 4 centuries ago, all wild colonies could be called feral in USA.

 

[sugarbush]

I did
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_domesticated_animals

Or the second page of this article
http://www.historyworld.net/wrldhis/PlainTextHistories.asp?groupid=1817&HistoryID=ab57&gtrack=pthc

Honey bees that go feral frequently die out without human intervention. Those that do manage to survive on there own would quickly vanish if they were removed from human agricultural practices.

 

[Crg]

That sounds like a chicken and egg situation.

I suggested you look up 'domesticated'.

As sugarbush has pointed out, maybe you should?

 

[telford_keeper]

Centurions had them

Bees have been domesticated for a couple of hundred years only. Before that, for thousands of years they were hunted, not farmed, and naturally selected for
* swarminess (that's the only way they could reproduce)
* resistance to local diseases (otherwise they'd die - but these are not the diseases we're faced with now)
* defensiveness (to maintain control of their nests)

Temper (defensiveness) can change either way in a generation - I've learned this the hard way!

I have to point out here that there is evidence in Cave drawings, pyramids which depict bees being kept. and Roman writers documented that legions would have beehives because they knew Honey was a useful resource to have to feed and treat wounds.

 

[oliver90owner]

After 50 posts, I don't think anyone has twigged that by definition a 'scrub queen' is a sub-standard queen. So the answer to the original non-question was - yes.

The advice re emergency cells is that a scrub queen is far more likely to result than one from a supercedure cell.

So this lot has all been a waste really - as far as the original question was concerned. There will be a boundary between 'acceptable' and 'less than acceptable' for queens ex emergency cells, but that is another discussion, maybe.

 

[Howsoonisnow]

Your winking smile reveals a certain domesticated smugness!

'Honey bees that go feral frequently die out without human intervention.' Some colonies do, obviously. How about the ones that find a secure home and thrive? There are prob fewer of these around that aren't already occupied due to deforestation hence it can lead to your statement.

'Those that do manage to survive on there own would quickly vanish if they were removed from human agricultural practices.' The honey bee survived for 100-160 million (depending on your source) but it was saved at the last hour by kindly humans! How arrogant and wholly incorrect. So, if all beekeepers globally downed hive tools, the honey bee is doomed?!

Sugar bush, could i ask you to answer this question: if a bait box becomes populated by a wild swarm are the bees instantly domesticated?

Honey bees were 'domesticated' 4000 years ago when we housed them in skeps/hives or 150 years ago when the bees space and removal frame was invented depending on who's quoting wikipedia. Or not.

 

[Chris Luck]

At what level of existence can a life form "be domesticated"?

If you farm snails, maggots, fish or worms, (or keep them in containers), are they domesticated?

Just a thought.

Chris

 

[madasafish]

At what level of existence can a life form "be domesticated"?

If you farm snails, maggots, fish or worms, (or keep them in containers), are they domesticated?

Just a thought.

Chris

If you kept quail - bred for meat and eggs, you would know that there are certain breeds capable of living on their own and some not.

Just look at dogs. Some breeds could easily fend for themselves - eg alsatians. Could a pug? I doubt it..

Cats on the other hand have largely domesticated their owners to feed and shelter them.. in return for killing songbirds and an occasional mouse - left behind a door in an unused bedroom to rot

 

[Chris Luck]

So by implication bees, maggots, snails and quails aren't, and can't be domestic.

(Loads of quails round these parts, lovely to hear them calling in the fields in the evening, guess they will be migrating soon).

Chris

 

[Crg]

So by implication bees, maggots, snails and quails aren't, and can't be domestic.

(Loads of quails round these parts, lovely to hear them calling in the fields in the evening, guess they will be migrating soon).

My domesticated quails wouldn't be able to migrate.

 

[Chris Luck]

Because?

Chris

 

[oliver90owner]

Because?

They are probably kept in a coop with a wire mesh run!

Regards, RAB

 

[Crg]

Because?

Firstly due to the obvious reason that RAB has pointed out.

Secondly, they're a domesticated bred that is a bit on the heavy side.

 

[Chris Luck]

So they are not really the native quail, Coturnix coturnix, but one of the sub species that wouldn't migrate anyway?

Chris